"Playing 1st game of Longstreet Next Week: Any Tips?" Topic
19 Posts
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wrgmr1 | 17 Jan 2015 10:04 a.m. PST |
Title says it all, we are embarking on yet another rule set for ACW, after playing F&F, Regimental F&F, and Black Powder. We are still trying to find a rule set we all like, that is fast and fun and has a decent historical feel. If you have any tips for playing our first game, please let me know. Thanks in advance. |
Prince Alberts Revenge | 17 Jan 2015 11:10 a.m. PST |
Basic tips for Longstreet are probably the same as any other game. For my first game,which was just a meeting engagement (no sexy objectives or scenarios) we kept it small: 3-4 regiments aside (about 30 stands worth) and an artillery battery. Terrain was also simple, some small groups of trees and rail fences/stone walls. The battle was an early war engagement and I commanded the Union troops. My 10 stand regiments comprised of eager recruits were pretty effective against the smaller Reb regiments. Keep your regiments big so they can absorb casualties and be more effective in combat. I really like the rules, here is a a brief report on a game we played a while back with some pictures: link |
CATenWolde | 17 Jan 2015 11:23 a.m. PST |
If you think of the game as an imagi-nations take on the ACW, loosely based on comic books and recruiting posters, you should be okay. 1. Don't try and play it like a miniatures game. It is a card-dominated game, driven by "Gotcha!" card play using miniature units as a cipher. Play the hand, not the table. 2. Anything you learned about actual ACW weapons and tactics either from reading or playing such rules as RF&F should be disregarded. For instance, 6lb guns and 12lb howitzers have the same range, as do light rifles and the 12lb Napoleon; on the other hand, 12lb howitzers and light rifles are equally accurate, while the 6lb gun and 12lb Napoleon gun-howitzer are also equally accurate (making the Napoleon less accurate than the gun it replaced); and my personal favorite, mounted cavalry is an actual melee threat to formed infantry. Don't expect the opposing formations to look like actual ACW formations as a result of the cumulative strangeness that is the campaign deck draw system. 3. The accumulation of Epic points is in no way tied to the use of winning strategy, or even good tactical common sense. If you imagine all the crazy stuff that gamers typically pull on the last turn of long games "just because I want to roll some dice and cause some casualties", you'll be well on your way to accumulating your Epic points. 4. Seriously – you can't *both* move and charge in one turn. So … yeah. Obviously the use of anything other than "all or nothing" tactics really doesn't work. Attack with one flank while refusing the other? Nope. Just line 'em up and go (or try to go, until you hit that magic swamp or your general starts arguing about some old girlfriend). Best of Luck! |
Trajanus | 17 Jan 2015 12:55 p.m. PST |
Chris mate, you're doing it again. What's "imagi-nations" about it? I never got an answer the first time I asked you this. I think we all get the fact you don't dig Longstreet. You could have saved yourself a lot of typing and just said ''Any tips? Yeah, don't bother!" |
CATenWolde | 17 Jan 2015 2:46 p.m. PST |
Sorry Trajanus, I didn't see your previous question, or I would have replied. I honestly think that Longstreet is the ACW as seen through the imagi-nation lens of the "Maurice" rules, or sort of pseudo-fictionalized version of the ACW – "more Hollywood than history" as the TSATF people say. They are built around the randomized application of heavily stereotyped ACW elements, such as various types of vapidly incompetent commanders, chaotic unit movements contrary to plan and reason, nationalistic myths such as the Dreaded Rebel Yell, and so on. Essentially, the game pours all of those often single-instance episodes into a deck and mandates that you play with all of them in every game. The campaign deck system doubles down on this approach by trying to be all things – by giving players a mix of units types only seen in small independent commands in the early war in the west (because players *want* to play with all those unit types), and yet fitting it into a framework of popular assumptions built around the mythology of the Eastern theater (ANV vs AoP). Now, if you want to see all those things played out on the table, then Longstreet might be the rules for you! Admittedly, after starting a strong ACW gaming presence here a couple of years ago, my regular group has taken to Longstreet and is enjoying themselves immensely … or so I hope! I don't think that simply replying "Don't bother!" would have been useful. Yes, I was flippant – oh no! However, I think my points are valid. What should he expect in his first game? 1. Be aware of how powerful the deck is, and learning to play it will dominate the game. 2. The rules play fast and loose with some common ACW gaming assumptions which will seem strange for someone used to other rules. 3. The Epic points system is not built around winning or losing, but attacking regardless. 4. The charge/move dichotomy is one of the most important decision points in the game, I'm sure purposefully. If you don't like all or some of those things, then Longstreet won't be for you, because it has them in spades. They are unusual and somewhat unique to the rules, so why not bring them up? I hope that this doesn't tarnish our otherwise cordial relationship! :) Cheers, Christopher |
ScottWashburn | 17 Jan 2015 2:56 p.m. PST |
Christopher, I think your description was extremely accurate. Longstreet is a beer & pretzels card game, not a wargame. That's not to say that it isn't fun :) |
Trajanus | 17 Jan 2015 5:03 p.m. PST |
Hells Teeth! It's powerful voodoo, this Longstreet! First it has me in a singularly contrary position with Christopher and now Scott joins in on the act! Scott, of course it's a war game! Or if it it's not, then neither is the generic flummery of Black Powder and it's barely distinguishable partner in crime Hail Caesar! It's most definitely a simple war game, as are they, but it's a wargame none the less. Of course there are degrees of simplicity but unless an author has gone out of their way to claim supremacy the realms of accuracy and fidelity to the period, a simple game should be judged for what it is as much as what it isn't. Both Fire & Fury variants are a Cracker Barrel short of ACW reality but that never stopped me, or a lot of others, playing them. Taking one of Christopher's points, cavalry. Before we even played our first game of Longstreet my gaming group agreed that the first mixed Brigade to show up on the table would have its cavalry unit introduced to a four pound hammer. None have shown up to date. The point being, if you can be bothered, cleaning the history within this populist gaming experience is easy and all rules have faults. Yes, you have to learn to use the cards to advantage but as I've said elsewhere, players do that with the charts used in other rules too. Of course there are some faults and Christopher is spot on to say Epic points in the Campaign section are a device to get players to attack regardless but you don't have to read too much ACW history to wonder if real commanders were not using these as well! :o) "Rebel Yell" is there to illustrate the élan/agression of Confederate units and encourage players to attack with them. Like it or not, it's accepted by most historians that Southern infantry had this attitude and paid the price for it. The difference here is that the best you can hope for in Longstreet is a 1:10 chance of having the card – it can be as low as 1:30 – where there are permanent advantages built into other rules like the original F&F and Guns at Gettysburg, to give Confederates the edge in combat or moral at anytime during the game! So yes, Longstreet does things a different way and there are lot of things you might want to add back in but it's not as off the wall or as flippant as one might think. On the other hand it's not the apogee of war gaming rules either but there again, what is? If I were forced to cite Longstreet for 'game crime' it would be something around the novice not having to understand the history behind the individual cards to appreciate the significance of what they represent, or the simplicity of movement and manoeuvre within the game. However, we don't all play war games to be educated by the experience even if we feel people may be missing out if they don't. |
Consul Paulus | 17 Jan 2015 5:14 p.m. PST |
I would suggest 1) Remind all players to read the text on the cards in their hand – some, especially the interrupt cards (the ones with the kepi symbol) must be played at a particular point in the game turn to have their full effect. 2) Be co-operative with your opponent, even if this sounds like prompting e.g. "I have invoked a Fire phase with this card, and have modified it with the 'Exposed Position' card – do you wish to play any modifying cards before I complete the phase?" (the opponent may have a card that modifies, but could decide to hold it for a later turn or to use for morale value) 3) You don't say if you are having a multi-player game. If it is more than 1 vs 1, ensure the number of players on each side is equal. Also, ensure all players are aware of the slight changes required to the rules (e.g. Only the C-in-C can play interrupt cards for interrupt effect). Aside from that, the general rules for any first try-out of a game – take it one step at a time, don't expect to get a quick and definitive result, be gentlemanly with each other over disputes. |
CATenWolde | 17 Jan 2015 5:33 p.m. PST |
Heh – don't stress about it Trajanus – last time I checked, it was a hobby, and people were allowed to have fun pursuing it in different ways. ;) I'm not surprised that you outlawed mixed brigades, but I doubt most groups would go that far. My quick list of easy fixes would be something like this: 1. No cavalry. 2. One battery per side, 6 guns for the Union, 4 for the CSA. Allow common replacements to be used on arty. 3. Each side draws one random Red/Whammy card (of the 3-4 worst offenders, you know the ones) at the beginning of the game and get that one card of that type. 4. I honestly can't see why allowing both charge and normal movement would break the game, but if that's going too far for you then allow it when playing two activation cards. But, that list probably dilutes things that others love about the game! |
Prince Alberts Revenge | 17 Jan 2015 6:06 p.m. PST |
Played both Fire and Fury and Longstreet, liked both but prefer Longstreet. I felt it was more "fun" and provided more balance. The tactics, decisions by the players and results felt accurate. Not sure if portrays the combat better than the other as I wasn't there. Longstreet created alot of tension and difficult decisions with the card play. Paulus brings up some very good advice, especially about reading the text of the cards carefully and being a fair sport with the cards and allowing your opponent to play cards if forgotten. |
ScottWashburn | 17 Jan 2015 7:24 p.m. PST |
I will admit that I've only played Longstreet once and it was with another guy's set of the rules, so I never read the rules and maybe we were doing things wrong :) But two things really turned me off about it: 1. No morale. Units fight to the death and never break. 2. Random events cards that aren't random at all. When I got a card that allowed me to magically create a patch of swampy ground to stop my opponent's charge, my reaction was: ??? Sure stuff like that happens in battle, but you can't DO IT to the enemy at will! Just did not work for me. |
akselia | 18 Jan 2015 3:29 a.m. PST |
Hullo, First a disclaimer – I've only played around seven games of Longstreet. - Use the 1863 deck, it is the most balanced. - Go through the Red action cards together and see what they do, they are pretty powerful. As suggested earlier, you may want to disallow the special effect, just use the morale (hit recovery) value if you so desire. - To understand the basic mechanisms start with a small (4 units of 6-8) infantry force with some seasoned veterans and some eager recruits. Add a battery of artillery. Add a lot of woods and some walls to defend. - Make sure you understand how the infantry volley and skirmish fire mechanisms work. Skirmish goes _through_ all sorts of cover. This represents the skirmish screens deployed forward. - Make sure you understand what the "disorder" effect for charge and movement is – you have to commit two cards to do something that would disorder your troops. Then a few words about the "feel" of the game. A note – I play in the same group as Chris (CATenwolde), I run our club Longstreet campaign, and I really really enjoy the system. This is not a straightforward deterministic game engine. Even though it is a IGO-UGO basic mechanism, the card system makes for a very tense and unpredictable game. As a player you are constantly under pressure to use your hand of cards either to make your own troops perform better, survive hits or make the other player's game harder. Each card can help you survive or hit the other guy. You are all the time working with limited resources and pressure. The four players in our campaign are just loving it. Which clearly shows that some players love this, some players hate it. Check it out, and move along if it did not tickle your fancy. Cheers, Aksu from Finland |
Trajanus | 18 Jan 2015 9:14 a.m. PST |
Heh – don't stress about it Trajanus – last time I checked, it was a hobby, and people were allowed to have fun pursuing it in different ways. ;) Yeah, no problem. ;o) What I'm actually doing with Longstreet is retro engineering. It occurred to me that it's so simple that instead of doing what seems to happen a lot of the time with rule sets where you learn the basics and then end up never actually using most of the rest , it was easier to add on. So I'm ditching all the Red card text and some of the more stupid interrupts and just using their morale value and activation. Then adding proper movement delay for disruptive terrain rather than just using an extra card to activate and a few other bits you come to a presentable game in no time, while retaining the "fun" and uncertainty that make the game attractive in the first place. There's a lot of good ideas in these rules if you keep the "game" elements in check. |
Trajanus | 18 Jan 2015 9:26 a.m. PST |
I will admit that I've only played Longstreet once and it was with another guy's set of the rules, so I never read the rules and maybe we were doing things wrong :) Scott Washburn, you are a very naughty boy! However, no the cards are not truly random.You get them randomly but you use them deliberately. The big trick is trying to use them to further your aims, reduce casualties and mess up the opposition all at the same time! And yes the lack of moral is a little odd but as the game, when played to the full rules, entails winning without reaching a break point in lost stands for your own side, pulling units out of the line becomes a tactical requirement. Thereby creating morale via the player themselves. Again this just a factor in the different approach to gaming the rules take. |
Trajanus | 18 Jan 2015 9:42 a.m. PST |
Hey Aksu, good summary! I think you may have found, as we did, that the Campaign system makes the rules. As well as adding extra elements it gives the games a purpose and highlights the reasons why some rules appear the way they do. I don't think it makes people like them if they didn't before but the Campaign certainly adds to the fun and in reality the two sections were written to compliment each other. |
wrgmr1 | 18 Jan 2015 12:18 p.m. PST |
Thanks for your suggestions and comments gents! I find the lack of Morale rules interesting, however if the Campaign rules even that out, then maybe we need to do a mini Campaign. Or create a house rule for for one off games. |
akselia | 19 Jan 2015 3:32 a.m. PST |
Hi, Just a quick note about the morale rules. Individual units do not check for morale, true. The only thing that counts is the army morale. In a normal game you check which army is smaller, divide it's size in stands by two and you get the break point for either army (in stands lost). So even a big army fighting against a small army will break with small losses. Now, this means you can't just throw your units away as your army will break (as Trajanus pointed out). Ok, what about the units fighting to the last then? A normal unit will be 6 or so stands in a normal game. It will be removed when it goes down to 1 stand. However, if you play the campaign, the unit will return as a 4 stand unit, and will be eligible for replacements. In effect this can be seen to model the effectiveness on the battlefield going down without everyone being actually dead. Unfortunately it also means the footprint of the unit on the table shrinks quite a bit. As the action deck introduces all sorts of "hurrah boys" and "let's skedaddle" effects on the actual battle narrative by influencing individual combats and events, in the big picture you get a fairly acceptable albeit "heroic" story of a chaotic small battle. Anyway, as many of the esteemed gents above have pointed out, the rule system is quite simple and open to lots of house rules to make the game suit YOUR personal preferences. As a side note, reading Linderman G. "Embattled Courage: The Experience of Combat in the American Civil War" gave me a lot of understanding on why e.g. epic points work the way they do in the game, and why units start as Eager and go down during the campaign. Cheers, and I hope you do manage to have a fun Longstreet experience, Aksu |
Trajanus | 19 Jan 2015 5:12 a.m. PST |
One of the nice effects off the Campagin is that while your troops improve in shooting and survival chances they actually become harder to get into a fight. So you can end up with veteran units who are more skilled than their opponents but not so keen throw themselves at a strong position. Giving you your morale effect. |
COL Scott ret | 20 Jan 2015 3:23 a.m. PST |
So it almost sounds a bit like it plays as if the Commanders After Action Report was really what happened without exageration. |
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