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"How badly can earth lose in an alien invasion" Topic


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Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP16 Jan 2015 1:03 p.m. PST

I'm speaking of plausible reality. But one supposition is as good as another.

That was kind my point. Given the lack of information, there's no reason to assume our first alien contact (if it happens) is more likely to be with an advanced civilization in stride who is above messing with us, a desperate people(?) thrust into spacefaring as survival by cataclysm, what we would consider just plain barbarous miscreants, the equivalent of teenagers out for a joyride, or the spores of giant space slugs that don't even recognize us as a species while they eat the planet barren.

My own personal opinion (based on the aforementioned lack of data) is that the Lovecraftian Azathoth Contingency is most likely – alien life would likely be so alien that if it arrived here, it wouldn't notice that is was stepping on us. Its fun to play in a few games, but it gets trite after a while.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP16 Jan 2015 1:38 p.m. PST

Well OSchmidt … It's a statistical improbability that we are alone in the universe … So I'm keeping an open mind … and a lot of tinfoil … tinfoilhat

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OSchmidt16 Jan 2015 2:08 p.m. PST

Dear Legion 4

If anyone considered statistical probability no one would buy a lottery ticket.

War Panda16 Jan 2015 2:36 p.m. PST

" alien life would likely be so alien that if it arrived here, it wouldn't notice that is was stepping on us."

Probably more likely that we wouldn't notice it :)

I'm curious OSchmidt why do you think it less likely that there's no there intelligent life in the countless star systems?

I'm from a small town in Ireland and I've often postulated that considering no life in the universe is possibly similar to my great ancestors of a few thousand years not believing in anyone or thing living outside of their known world. I often consider how incredulous they would have been if they had been asked to consider some of the species of animals native of Africa for example.

"I will get no amount of criticism for this but…"

I just read your post with the above opening and according to my own humble understanding of this life I believe that this is one of the most plausible motives for an ET intelligent life visiting our planet.

I believe that as a species we attempt to follow a logical and rational direction in discovering the truths that immediately surround us but also the ultimate truth of who we are and what is our place in the cosmos. But we obviously also serve certain inclinations that to a lesser or greater degree are common to us all. Inclinations towards control and dominance over ourselves and our neighbours. Individuals that allow these inclinations to rule their actions persisting in these seemingly self-promoting endeavours inevitably become more and more ensnared by these compulsions. History has shown us that ultimately these actions bring misery and destruction on both the perpetrators / advocates of these philosophies and the inevitable victims

One would imagine any true intelligent life would learn that these behaviours eventually lead to ultimate and personal dissatisfaction. One would imagine we'd acknowledge a more effective way of reaching some form of self contentment. Yet despite the lessons of history we constantly choose to follow ideologies that counter what we have learnt about human satisfaction.

Of course along with Steve Earl and the Rolling Stones we have also learnt that an individual or regime that serves these compulsions can never be "satisfied." Can you imagine Adolf Hitler being satisfied if he had taken control of the entire planet? Seems like a serious flaw or at the very least a destructive animalistic appetite that can override our ability to be reasonable. Of course there's the view that all we are is an animal thats more intelligent than the rest and I think if you believe that then You are probably right :) Would our ET neighbours necessarily be disadvantaged by this "flaw" or if this is a flaw unique to our condition does it actually allow us opportunities "alien" to other intelligent life? This sentence was at the complete service of the intended pun :)

I think that if were visited, an analysis of the contradictions of our species would be of great interest. A species that in only 100 orbits of their sun can exterminate 200,000,000 of their own while simultaneously striving wholeheartedly to improve their health and well being. I wonder if any invasion of an alien to this planet could be as motivationally complex as an invasion by earthlings to another planet.

Henry Martini16 Jan 2015 2:54 p.m. PST

Actually Parrskool, according to hundreds of years of terrestrial conquest protocol even that much effort would be excessive; all they'd have to do is land somewhere, plant their flag, and proudly sing a round of their weird, electronic, discordant, but patriotic and stirring planetary anthem.

Dances With Words Fezian17 Jan 2015 4:37 a.m. PST

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'nuff said….

War Panda17 Jan 2015 5:21 a.m. PST

DWW Absolutely Brilliant thumbs up

…and true

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2015 8:00 a.m. PST

Dear Legion 4

If anyone considered statistical probability no one would buy a lottery ticket.

That's why I don't buy lottery tickets, plus I figure i used up all my luck when I was Grunt in my distant youth … old fart So again when it comes to ETs,
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I'll keep an open mind … until they land on the WH lawn and then all bets are off ! But don't worry … I'll put a good word in for you to our new ET friends if it comes to that … tinfoilhat wink
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"The Truth is out there … "

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2015 8:07 a.m. PST

Yeap ! DWW's cartoon post (Calvin & Hobbs ?) pretty much says it all for me as well … thumbs up

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Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Jan 2015 10:21 p.m. PST

On the other hand, if we discover they can be used in place of fossil fuels, maybe stewed up and made into "go-juice", aliens beware evil grin

Matsuru Sami Kaze19 Jan 2015 9:43 a.m. PST

I am pretty sure the next alien incursion will be conducted by venture capitalists. The desperate ones trying to find a new place to conquer/live will probbly be dead or totally debilitated from long term space travel by the time they get here. The space guys with money will be the ones to actually visit. They will want to know what we have to leverage. I say we offer to sell them our national debt, to get it out from under the thumb of you know who. If they want to vaporize some place to make a point, let's point to…(you add your favorite target here.) Let's face it, only a truely wealthy planet is going to afford the kind of space travel in any kind of numbers that are going to impress us. Hey, we've got nukes and germs. Bring it on.

OSchmidt19 Jan 2015 10:59 a.m. PST

Dear Legio 4

I buy insurance policies not lottery tickets. I never buy lottery tickets on my own, but when they gin up an office pool here to buy tickets, I ALWAYS go in on them.

The reason is simple. They are insurance policies that when Monday rolls around I am NOT the only employee left in the office.

Back when I had a truly psycho boss they were even more important than ever.

The proof of the wisdom of this is when my wife's office was getting up a pool, her boss, who was not psycho, asked "Why are you all buying lottery tickets? You know the odds are staggeringly against you and you can't win. Dot said to her Boss, "Ken, do you want to be the only employee in the office Monday morning? She said she never saw $5 USD fly out of his pocket so fast.

OSchmidt19 Jan 2015 11:49 a.m. PST

Dear War Panda

It's a hunch. but it's from some valid points.

First, I don't like it, but I believe that the Speed of Light is the maximum speed of the universe. If so, that's going to mean that distance alone is going to prevent any alien species from contacting another, because if you work the numbers with the prediction of intelligent live you're going to arrive with distances of 300 to 400 light years between stars, even if you COULD go at the speed of light, it would take so long to get there. Perhaps you can look at it another way, that while there may be other planets with intelligent life, it really doesn't matter if they can't contact or meet each other, for each intelligent planet, they may be "alone" because they can't know of the other. The second is that the existence of humans has been in only the last 60,000 years or so, and our civilization producing signals only in the last 100 or so. That's a mere split second on the galactic scale and you might have lots of intelligent live, but it winks on and off in a second or two and so proximity and the time of their "space wondering and exploration phase" may be vanishingly short.

There are loads of other caveats, but the main point is that there is absolutely no evidence we can find-- ever. Beyond that, the universe was created without human happiness in mind, and it is what it is, and the accidents of it's creation in no way mandate even probability.

There's nothing theological about it, nothing religious, in fact, theology and religion would mandate and desire a multiplicity of worlds with a multiplicity of beings.

You say

"Can you imagine Adolf Hitler being satisfied if he had taken control of the entire planet? Seems like a serious flaw or at the very least a destructive animalistic appetite that can override our ability to be reasonable. Of course there's the view that all we are is an animal thats more intelligent than the rest and I think if you believe that then You are probably right :) Would our ET neighbours necessarily be disadvantaged by this "flaw" or if this is a flaw unique to our condition does it actually allow us opportunities "alien" to other intelligent life? This sentence was at the complete service of the intended pun :)

I think that if were visited, an analysis of the contradictions of our species would be of great interest. A species that in only 100 orbits of their sun can exterminate 200,000,000 of their own while simultaneously striving wholeheartedly to improve their health and well being. I wonder if any invasion of an alien to this planet could be as motivationally complex as an invasion by earthlings to another planet."

Very well. But I counter with, "We are what we are and that's all that we are, we're Popeye the Ontological Sailor." We are what we are and we can do little about that. The problem is that we are evolved animals, but we are very peculiarly evolved animals. We cannot help what we have evolved from, or into- it was not of our choice, and therefore this throws into the trash-can all the snotty and utterly fallacious arguments that involve some form of "there's no intelligent life on earth." That says nothing except that it's an insult to everyone on the planet, for as evolved animals we have done quite well for ourselves.

Most people do not understand what the term "intelligent life" means. That does not mean smart. It means self-aware, that is, that we exist and we can perceive of the world around us as different than from us. That we are an identity in the world and a personality, and not just a seamless blend of matter and energy, and that we know of ourslves as personality. This does not mean intelligent as in "smart" or "brilliant." It means aware. But being evolved animals (especially with humans with their four areas of the brain, all at times at war with each other) this awareness comes to us through sensations, observations etc.

It is not in the intellect that man's genius and his awareness is to be found. It is in the emotions. But at the same time we are sufficiently developed to recognize the different between intelligence or logic and emotions and passions.

Men are driven by the emotions and the passions and only occasionally can the higher intellect or "intelligence" as the critics define it triumph over and rule them. That does not make man unintelligent, it makes him human. Oh to be sure we can be entirely logical and clear headed when it's someone else or something afar off which does not touch us, but when it touches us and ours then we are different creatures entirely. We would be less human, nay less than human if we were. Thus we are beset by the agony of the conflict between what we want and what we know is right or the best.

Let me try and illustrate it with a myth from our long past. What is the name of the tree in the Garden of Eden that Eve eats from and gives to her husband which is the downfall of man. That tree is "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." Not that it is NOT the tree of Good and Evil, but the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. The maturing of mankind in the garden comes with the ability of man to differentiate between those acts which are good and those which are evil, leading one to believe that these terms have no meaning before they are known, and that acts done prior to that are neither good nor evil-- for remember it says that their eyes were opened and they KNEW they were naked! The metaphors are overpowering. At the same time, let us consider why they did this. The serpent plants the seed of doubt, but mankind wishes to "be like God." Is this a bad thing? No, not at all. For what does Eve know of God. She only knows a creature that is loving to them, good to them, provides everything for them, takes care of them, and in fact he is the only creature like them they know. They therefore cannot be blamed for wanting to be like him.

I shall leave out the truth of what the serpent said for another time. It isn't important. The point is that in "the knowing" the eating of the apple we have "when their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked" a metaphor that we know what we are, and what we want, but also that those wants may not be just or good, given our fellow man. That "knowing" creates a yawning chasm between our natures and within our natures that makes us both incomplete, but at the same time better than unknowing animals.

Consider the human vice of Cruelty. We know we can think cruel thoughts about other people, can even be cruel to other people, but only the most reprobate among us can live with his cruelty to the point that he will not see he is being cruel and will think it a matter just of course. The cruel know they are cruel and seek to hide from it an have it not known. But to ourselves we know this. We know we could be better. We can CONCEIVE of ourselves as being better and that we ought to do so, but again, as the carpenter from Nazareth said "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."

At the same time we have empathy and sorrow, sympathy and emotion for the sufferings of others, and this is not always apparent from our biology. That metaphorical sundering at the foot of the myth of the tree carries with it the desire to be like God. To be able to with the wave of a wand or the wiggle of a nose, or more prosaic means, help our fellow sufferers and feel for them. It is the ultimate statement of the complex, highly emotional, passionate, and occasionally "intelligent" human nature.

Consider the Aliens of Aliens. Their biology is complete. They are not at variance. There are no oughts or shoulds or mights or might nots. They do what they do and that's all that they do they're @#@# the biological alien. The Moti in "The Mote in God's Eye" are no different, and unable to transcend their biology. But we are. People do the most amazing things. They will throw themselves into an ice-choked freezing river to rescue a dog and it's not even their dog. People hearing of the plight of a poor girl halfway around the world will collect millions to help her. A man tries to kill himself because he is despondant and out of work will be given a dozen job offers and lives happily ever after. A man is beheaded by a bunch of murdering criminals on the other side of the world and people are worked up into a paroxysm of hatred for anyone like them or even close to them. A person is insulted and decides to take it out by on the insultor with a baseball bat, and a woman who's daughter is brutally raped and murdered by a callous criminal will hate and despise them, but will forgive them? None of this is rational, none of this is logical, but it is.

I don't think species which are at peace with their biology will ever develop space travel or even science.

We are a curious species to be at the top of the food chain. We have no natural weapons, we are neither strong, not clawed, nor fanged, or armored, nor specifically long lived or robust. We are in fact "prey" sharing only one physical feature in common with preadtors. (No it's not what you think). We are particularly unsuited to be king of the king of the beasts. But we are. Our technology springs from our unsuitability to the planet. But that too is a part of the equation that "we are not all that we seem."

And this is another reason I think we may be alone. Add to the distance, the timing, this-- that while there may be many many planets teeming with life, it may not be intelligent for it's biology will fit seamlessly with its planet, and there may be no cognitive dissonance to spur the creation of science and technology and space travel and at the same time not impart the need to find out why we are different, why we are the way we are, and a need to touch the creator-- to be like God.

Please not to any out there attempting to use the snarky atheistic argument of creating an invisible magical friend, that you are only digging your own rhetorical grave. It matters not why we created the magical friend, we DID create it, and that only goes to the answering of a divergence between our biology and our environment.

Somewhere we parted ways, and that was our expulsion from Eden.

And we are here now and can neither go back or stand still.

demiurgex28 Jan 2015 5:02 p.m. PST

LOL, wow O'Schmidt. Obviously some deep cogitating there, but some odd divergences.

One, we aren't biologically unsuited for our environment. That later conceit in your argument is completely at odds from evolution. Remember we descend from apes, and they certainly didn't have that issue.

Our intelligence arose and our physical deviations started trending from the fact we could and did alter our environment. From fire and clothes and shelter reducing our need for body hair, to spears and pointy things reducing our need for our ape like musculature and any inherent need for personal physical weaponry.

Evolution in this extent is self-reinforcing. To the point were are on the cusp of altering the human genome itself and opening an entire new calvacade of alterations through intelligently directed evolution. We may not see it, but my kid may very well.

As far as aliens go, who knows? But I roll my eyes at anyone that says aliens have to be a certain thing. We have far too little data on the universe to have any right to preconceived notions there. There is no inherent reason to believe they are blood thirsty invaders or diplomatic pacifists – it depends entirely on their unknowable circumstances.

I feel the math is pretty strong that there are other intelligences out there – the question is due to the amazing scope of the universe, and the acceptance that due to the redshifting of galaxies space itself is constantly expanding – could we ever expect to have any meaningful contact with them.

If we do, I hope we grow up a bit as a species before that contact happens.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Jan 2015 6:32 p.m. PST

When the entire body of deduction begins with a large volume of assumptions that have no empirical basis, that body of deduction is ..?

Rebelyell200630 Jan 2015 8:23 p.m. PST

The thing with all these "Planetary Conquests" themes is just how incredibly difficult it is to actually subjugate and entire populated planet.

Say what you will about L. Rob Hubbard, but his novel Battlefield Earth revolves around multiple heavily-armored alien aircraft teleporting to Earth and poison-gassing 99% of the population before anybody realized that a threat was present.

DS615103 Feb 2015 10:59 p.m. PST

If Aliens come here I think the LAST thing we will have to worry about is invasion and them destroying us.

You go on to make valid points…but only if the aliens think like us.
There is no reason to assume they do/would. Without understanding how they think, we have no chance of guessing what they would do.

On the other hand, they may be just like us. They come here to kill all the Humans for no reason, just because they can, or want to. Maybe they're just mean.
Maybe they like killing civilizations.

Any scenario is a valid one, and all equally likely since we have zero data.

Bashytubits04 Feb 2015 11:00 a.m. PST

I am astonished at the number of comments my OP has generated, this may be my personal best. I very much enjoy Invasion of the Air Eaters though. It's sister game is fun as well. This was an experiment of playing a boardgame with miniatures and everyone had a blast playing.

Pyrate Captain07 May 2016 9:44 p.m. PST

I believe this, inspired by the reasoning of Arthur C. Clark:

The human mind is both enlightened and enslaved by its obsession to catalog and categorize; by making sense of what is newly perceived by what is already known and classified.

Alien invasion will be so unique, so un-classifiable, that it will be over before we even knew what happened.

Ponder08 May 2016 3:48 p.m. PST

Howdy,

Y'all might want to consider reading this book.

An Introduction to Planetary Defense: A Study of Modern Warfare Applied to Extra-Terrestrial Invasion

amazon.com/Introduction-Planetary-Defense-Extra-Terrestrial-Invasion/dp/1581124473

- snipped – This book describes a serious look at defending the planet in the event of an extra-terrestrial invasion. Travis Taylor, et al, have written the definitive book on the defense of earth against a potential alien incursion. Whatever your beliefs on the subject, and despite many of my own popular novels I am agnostic at best, the book also serves as an important primer on the potential future of warfare on every level. It is tightly grounded in current day realities of war and extrapolates thoughtfully but closely about future potentials. It should be on the reading list of anyone who is serious about national security and the future of war.

Ponder on,

JAS

MKGipson10 May 2016 6:41 a.m. PST

In human warfare terms, the "high ground" is vital for winning battles. Aliens from space would automatically have "the high ground" on us poor humans. We have *nothing* that could attack ships in High Earth Orbit (remember the book "Footfall"). Aliens would just need to stay in orbit and drop rocks on us until we surrendered to their demands. They would not have to be big "dinosaur killer" rocks either. Just keep dropping car-sized rocks on our population centers at just orbital speeds. Our cities would be flattened and the overall planetary environment would not be greatly changed.

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