"Selling a 'used' PDF version of rules?" Topic

As I was searching Ebay for a used version of Chain of Command (no luck) I was wondering what the implications of selling a PDF you no longer intend to use is? People sell physical copies of rules all the time for various reasons. As more and more publishers make rules available as PDFs, will there be a secondary market for them? I'm not talking about pirating PDFs, I know that happens often enough with the big manufacturers rule books (want the brand new codex for 40k? wait a day and someone has scanned their per-ordered book already). But if I'm honestly not going to play it again, do people think it's OK to sell a PDF to another person who is interested if I delete it from my computers? What if I'm throwing in PDF expansions to a physical rule book I'm selling?

Well, according to a copy right lawyer I once spoke with…

You cannot re-sell published material… legally because you do not have distribution rights.

I.e. you cannot even sell a physical book or give it to a friend.

The format does not matter. How true this is I am not sure.

To the best of my knowledge this is never enforced and I believe libraries have an exemption… not sure how used book stores handle this.

Interesting….

I just checked and apparently this has been officially overturned?

link

According to the Supreme Court (2013) you can re-sell published works that you have purchased:

link

Never mind!

Your lawyer friend was wrong to begin with. You can sell physical books you own – you can not make copies and sell those. The case in question had to do with a guy basically acting as a retailer (selling books he never intended for himself).

As for the PDF, check the terms of sale on it, if it says something along the lines of exclusive and non-transferable then it doesn't matter what anyone thinks you are not allowed to transfer ownership in any manner – void where prohibited by law…

I would assume the same thing about computer games (who reads those EULA terms anyways?), but people resell those all the time also.

Well it looks like this finally hit the Supreme Court and was settled…

Amazon has an option to "resell" ebooks but that's because they can remove it from the kindle account.

Outside of such a closed eco-system, I imagine there's little way to ensure this and our legal system surrounding digital content is…interesting to say the least.

Video game manufacturers have been getting around the secondary market by needed a unique code for any online content. After buying the game used and then buying the code from the manufacturer most of the time you're paying just as much as the game was new (and sometimes more if the game isn't a new release). Most of the gaming PDFs are at a price point that you might as well buy it from the store. What got me thinking was that the PDF for Chain of Command was 14 pounds, about $21 USDusd. That's significant less than a printed rule book, but too much for me to buy the book out of sheer curiosity. Thankfully I know a couple of guys with the rules so I can borrow them and see if I want to buy it.

I would assume that no one is going on a buying spree to pirate gaming rules and then resell them. People who are going to steal the rules are simply going to steal them, not pay for them first. And if they were there is nothing stopping them from buying a physical book, scanning the entire thing in an afternoon and then returning it or selling it for almost full price the same day on Ebay. I'm just curious what the secondary market will be like when the electronic formats are more and more popular. Will it disappear or adapt?

You should be fine selling a used PDF, but check that the pages aren't torn or damaged or the buyer might expect some money off!

I should think that it would break the end-user agreement with most PDF publishing wargame companies out there.

Regardless I think it is bad form. PDFS are almost always sold at a reduced price from the print version with a "do not distribute" tag.

The ability of the Internet to rapidly disseminate product makes pdf resale much dicier than physical rules.

Yes, I am an old Fuddy duddy.

Usually if I really want something but don't have the scratch, I sell something I have not used for more than 5 years to pay for it.

If you originaly buy it from somewhere like Wargames Vault, it will have your name on every page.

Just tell me where you want to re-sell the PDF, I will watch with interest. Your name is not on every page, but you should be aware that there is a tag on each PDF which links it to you.

There is a 40% discount on PDFs as composed to the hard copy rules. There is a reason for that. You gain a cheaper set of the rules, one which are ideal for modern stuff like tablets; but you also don't get the full benefit of owning a hard copy of the rules which you can resell.

Of course, you can ignore what I have just said and, frankly, the chances of me doing a Dirty Harry and tracking you down are slim, but there is a legal risk that you run.

More importantly, and this is the rub, I have sold stuff to wargamers in PDF format for the past ten years. The reason I have done this is that many wargamers really appreciate the fact that they can get access to a set of rules or a supplement INSTANTLY. And we all love instantly!

I am, first and foremost, a wargamer. I enjoy the stuff that you enjoy, I get a lot of fun out of creating games that you enjoy playing, or scenarios, or campaigns, or whatever. I have always believed that taking a risk with the honesty of wargamers was not a problem; we're all in this for the fun of the hobby and 99% of us are honest and decent people.

I have had a large number of game designers contact me and ask "Can you really trust your customers?". Every time I have said "I do". Call me a fool, but I'd rather believe that people who share my hobby are just simple, decent, blokes like me.

So. Ultimately, I am unlikely to track you down, but the reason you got it cheaper is why you can't resell.

Rich

To look at it from a tangent, if you really want to see what the CoC rules are like before risking a purchase, why not read a few online reviews, or watch one of the TFL fairly extensive video introductions on Youtube?

That's what I tend to do, but then I like the excitement of opening a new set of rules without having read every page before. I know that sounds a little weird though :-)

To be clear, I'm not talking about pirating anything. I'm not looking to sell anyone a PDF I bought. I'm not cheaping out and stealing anything from anyone. I had a thought and figured I'd pose it to the community.

I know wargames vault tags their PDFs, I happen to have a couple from them with my name stamped across the bottom of the pages. I also know people who get together, buy one copy of a rules set and pass it around to their friends despite any watermarks. I also know people who play 40k with Chinese recast figures and scanned copies of codexes, and as someone who makes my living as an 'artist' I let them know what I think about it.

Usually if I really want something but don't have the scratch, I sell something I have not used for more than 5 years to pay for it.

And if that something happens to be a PDF?

we're all in this for the fun of the hobby and 99% of us are honest and decent people.

Call me a fool, but I'd rather believe that people who share my hobby are just simple, decent, blokes like me.

I agree, but I'm not talking about dishonesty here. For example it looks like the supplements for CoC are PDF only (at least on your website). If I sell a hard copy of CoC, what do I do with the PDFs? Do I give them to the guy? Charge him a couple extra bucks? Delete the files? Without the rules I have no use for the PDFs. If they were printed books I would bundle them together and no one would bat an eye at it. What if it's a game that was never published in hard copy?

Of course, you can ignore what I have just said and, frankly, the chances of me doing a Dirty Harry and tracking you down are slim, but there is a legal risk that you run.

To be frank, there is no way you're bringing any charges against someone for re-selling a single copy of a PDF. The filing fees alone would be ten times the damages you'd collect. I've had cease and desist letters drafted for people using my pictures without permission and prayed that it scared them becuase hiring a lawyer wouldn't be worth it. Then there's the matter of filing something in a foreign country.

This is an interesting one – there have been a couple of EU cases regarding software that are comparable: on one hand suggesting that you can re-sell software that's been downloaded (provided that you can destroy/disable the copy you had), but on the other hand suggesting that it depends on the nature of the software and what's packaged with it. Check out the usedSoft v Oracle and Nintendo v PC Box cases and commentaries – there may be more recent developments but those are the ones that come to mind.

The principle hasn't been extended to other intangible media (music, ebooks and the like) – but nor has it been ruled out and the principles are the same.

So if you fancy being a test case…

I suspect that over time, we'll see e-publishers using a cloud based model for distributing ebooks (eg Kindle Cloud) and music, which potential would permit a secondary market for them to exist in a practical way, but for the time being it's a rather grey area.

I can't imagine many people wanting to buy a PDF version from anyone other than an official source, as (regardless of your own personal intentions and honesty in terms of deleting your own copy) can buyers really trust the seller not to be pirating them?

Well it looks like this finally hit the Supreme Court and was settled…

I think that case excluded software (including e-books, apps, etc.)

For Amazon, you don't own the books, you rent them.

As for Wargame Vault, it would depend on the EULA if such a thing exists.

I for one like twofatlardies belief in the general honesty of gamers. Phil Barker on the other hand does not have such a belief. W RG spokesperson says they will never sell electronic versions of DBA.

As for Wargame Vault, it would depend on the EULA if such a thing exists.

Wargame Vault watermarks all PDFs for a reason.

I generally buy everything TFL puts out in PDF because I like their rules and they're cheap.

We really only have the decency of folks to depend upon to keep these things going.

Though I think the OP was asking a general question about how things work, this seems like a good place to ask knowledgeable folks about these types of things?

Interesting that PDFs are cheap because they cannot be resold. I thought they would be cheaper as they do not have physical production costs (ie paper/ink).

Enjoy

Marc – the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Thank you bbriarcliffe!