"is this a real squad org? (US Army)" Topic

so I am going through a few of my skirmish rules sets, and some have the "points buy" system. according to what I can buy, my US Armored Rifle squad can look like:

1x squad leader/ smg
1x team leader/ smg
2x BAR men
2x assistant gunners
3x Riflemen
1x rifle grenadier

add a few riflemen for a leg unit. this plus the halftrack with a .50 and 2 .30's strapped to the sides equals lots of freedom to throw at them Narzis. 'MERICA!!
but is it real? it seems like a boat load of firepower, and kinda like a "modern squad made with old guns" type deal?

thanks for the help. I'm not really a ww2 guy so i was just curious.

Modern squads came from somewhere. Plus US troops were notorious for being well armed. Armored infantry were probably armed to the teeth with everything they could get their mits on. I remember hearing about Army squads toting 2+ BARs and even using M1919 that they "found". And who's that your squad isn't the remains of a platoon? Besides, it's your game so have fun with it.

According to my "go to" reference for WW2 organisation it seems to have too many SMGs and BARs?

link

Then again there's always the "official To&e" vs "real world" argument

- I guess its entirely possible that a unit may have appropriated some unofficial weaponry to boost their firepower (particularly if the upgraded weapons use the same ammo)

If you subscribe to this way of thinking I guess you could replace the odd rifle in a platoon with a SMG or BAR?

Just my 2p worth – its your game after all!

'Bayonet Strength' is the go-to site for WWII unit composition.

Here's their US Armored page: link

Edited to add – Never mind, Tonic beat me to it!

That almost sounds like one of the Marine organizations. They eventually ended up with three BAR's.

Sounds like Big Joe's squad from Kelley's Heroes.

Two SMGs, two squad automatics, handful of riflemen and a halftrack? Somehow this reminds me of panzergrenadier squad organisation…

Good basics for US Army platoon and squad organization in ETO:

US Army 1944 Infantry Platoon: 40 men
HQ = 4
- Platoon Leader
- 3 Rifleman

3 X Rifle Squad = 12 each
- Leader (Sub-machine gun)
- Assistant Leader (BAR)
- 10 Rifleman

Notes:
-Some riflemen were identified as "scout", some as "grenadier" (3 rifle grenade launchers per squad were provided), some as ammo bearers for the BAR, and one as assistant gunner for the BAR. But they were all issued M1 Garands.
-As discussed in another thread, the SMG was not issued to squad leaders. It was issued at the company level. Enough were issued (12 per) to provide every squad leader with an SMG. This was often (though not always) how it was deployed.
-Late war many squads carried 2 BARs. I have not yet found an FM TOE describing this, but it seems to have become common in ETO.

US Army Armored Infantry World War II Platoon: 57 men
Platoon HQ = 12
- Commander
- Platoon Sergeant
- Staff Sergeant
- Driver
- 8 Rifleman

2 X Rifle Squad = 12 each
- Staff Sergeant
- Assistant (sergeant)
- Driver
- 9 Rifleman

MG Squad = 12
- Staff Sergeant
- Assistant (Sergeant)
- 2 Gunner
- 2 Ammo handler
- Driver
- 5 Rifleman

Mortar Squad = 9
- Staff Sergeant
- 2 Gunner
- 2 Ammo Handler
- 2 Rifleman
- 2 Driver

Notes:
- Most of the support weapons were issued per half-track, not per platoon or squad. So this makes the TOE look light on weapons, when it was most certainly not.
- 2 BARs per half-track (per squad) seems to have been common, but there was no TOE-designated BAR gunner or BAR team.
- 1 bazooka was also issued per half-track. Again there was no TOE-designated bazooka gunner or team.
- Most half-tracks were issued with only one MG. The MG section half-tracks were issued with three: one .50 cal M2 HMG and two .30 cal M1919 MMGs. ALL half-track MGs were de-mountable, and all half-tracks were issued with tripods for the MGs.

US Army Airborne World War II platoon: 39/51 men
Platoon HQ = 7
- 2 Officers
- Platoon Sergeant
- Sergeant Guide
- 3 Messengers (1 RTO)

2-3 Rifle Squad X 12 each
Mortar Squad = 6 (1 X 60mm mortar)

Notes:
- Airborne went with bipod-mounted M1919s rather than BARs. But many pictures show BARs also being carried (in ADDITION to M1919 LMGs).
- Detailed organization of the squads and their levels of kit varied from mission to mission.

For those who wish to review the full details (and pull out additional information for their own gaming or other interests), the full field manual for the US Army Infantry Rifle Company is available here: link

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Official go to sites do not list any BARs among the troops.

2 SMG and 2 BAR would be unlikely but not impossible.

Thanks to the OP and all for the links above. I am new to WWII gaming and looking to use Chain of Command as soon as the courier/postie delivers from The Lardies. The info above will assist in guiding the number of miniatures needed.

Then, as usual, I'll likely order three time more than needed in three different scales, then terrain, then paints, vehicles, decals, books…wait, forget it!

My solicitor will be contacting you lot!

Condotta- Chain of Command actually specifies squads for US infantry. Not got my copy to hand, but I think it's a 12 man squad, with leader ( SMG), BAR gunner with three riflemen supporting and rest of squad with M1s.
Battlegroup has similar, but I think they make the BAR squad 5 men and the rifle team, including leader, as 7 men.

-As discussed in another thread, the SMG was not issued to squad leaders. It was issued at the company level. Enough were issued (12 per) to provide every squad leader with an SMG. This was often (though not always) how it was deployed.
-Late war many squads carried 2 BARs. I have not yet found an FM TOE describing this, but it seems to have become common in ETO.

Six extra BAR per company headquarters (for a total of 15 in the company) were given in the same Change 1 dated 30 June 1944 to T/O&E 7-17 Infantry Company, Rifle, that gave the 6 submachine guns (for a total of 6 in the company).

ok thanks guys! so basically this would be a "picked up in the field" org. I have just been feeling rather patriotic lately, and since most of the guys in my group are kraut lovers,and I'm not big into ww2, i was thinking that this would be a good way to make a bunch of 'Murica! jokes and play the team America song while i kick the poo out of some ss troopers.

steamingdave47, thanks. The Lardies have made my decision easier and I'm good with that. I look forward to getting the rules and giving them a go.

Dobber, you'll need those BARs and SMGs to offset the LMG42s and German firepower – good luck!

The single SMG was the halftrack driver's personal weapon.

A Tommy gun won't do much to offset the German squad's firepower. Most firefights in the ETO took place beyond the effective range of SMG's – a weapon that fires pistol caliber ammunition out to 100 yards or so isn't much good when the opposition is shooting holes in you with Mausers and MG42's from a quarter of a mile away.

There is always a problem with wargamers adding weapons to a unit. In the real world they were undoubtedly taken but proably given to a member with sufficent ability as to not use it unless the situation was dire. Adding an extra weapon does not suddenly add unlimited ammunition for that weapon. You would need to think in your rules when it would be appropriate to use such a weapon so as not to be completely unrepresentative of the real world.

The WWII rules we use allow players to 'beef-up' their rifle squads by adding extra LMGs to them. In the U.S. case this is supposed to be .30 cals and not BARs. Does anyone know whether or not this happened in U.S. rifle squads, and if so how common was it? Because the rules allow it the tendency is for the players to want to use it every time, a situation that I am far from happy with because I've seen little evidence to justify it. My knowledge of U.S. organisations is limited though as I concentrate more on German and British troops.

Thanks in anticipation

"You would need to think in your rules when it would be appropriate to use such a weapon so as not to be completely unrepresentative of the real world."

Indeed, otherwise why not just give them all BARs (or MG42s or MP44s with IR nightsights or whatever).

Agree with Martin above – while anything is possible you have to ask is it typical, rare or exceptional.

This is something which should be asked of all those army lists fielding the big German tanks. But I don't have an answer off hand.

The bar was not really much better than a regular rifle. As used. No bipod, no assistant, 20 round mag and no replaceable barrel.
Slightly more effective than an 8 shot rifle but not an lmg.
The real equalisers a us platoon had were support weapons not directly within the platoon.

Also. Real people care about things like weight. Some us units preferred to swop their bars for garands or smg.

The bar was not really much better than a regular rifle. As used. No bipod, no assistant, 20 round mag and no replaceable barrel.

Only the original M1918 version had no bipod.

The bottom mounted magazine was a significant disadvantage for emplaced firing.

Also. Real people care about things like weight. Some us units preferred to swop their bars for garands or smg.

IIRC there was extra pay for lugging the "Big Ass Rifle" ?

My impression has always been that US Armored Infantry tended to load up their halftracks with whatever extra weapons they could lay their hands on and caught their fancy.

There was an interesting article on the Forgotten Weapons website that did a comparison between the original M1918 BAR and the later M1918A2, suggesting that the former was actually a better design:
link

Very interesting link – thanks.

Adding an extra weapon does not suddenly add unlimited ammunition for that weapon. You would need to think in your rules when it would be appropriate to use such a weapon so as not to be completely unrepresentative of the real world.

Quite true. In the real world, weapons and ammo aren't left conveniently laying around at the next objective like they are in a video game.

Quartermasters are not famed for their generosity and you would have to convince your supply sgt. it was worth his while 'acquiring' and bringing forward large amounts of ammo for your unauthorized weapon.

That link about BARs had a very interesting discussion below.

That guy Kirk certainly has strong views but they seem to be sound.

I've never struggled with too many support weapons…in Afghanistan and Iraq, we lacked enough weapons you can attach a bayonet to!

Ends up very static and can sacrifice initiative…to the extent I'd take a minimi or UGL off a fire team if it ended up without at least one 'clean' rifle. But would keep the sharpshooter…

Perhaps not officially for WWII, though for the post-War period of the 1950s and early 1960s, it looks very familiar.

The BAR is referred to as an AR (automatic rifle), and there were indeed two of them per squad, in at least some TO&Es (I suspect at least one rifleman with rifle-grenades, too).

I seem to recall 11 men in that squad though, officially, though with manpower shortages, it could be less.

Robert Bowen, in his book 'Fighting With The Screaming Eagles' (he was a Glider Infantry squad leader) describes how, after returning to England from Normandy, he acquired an extra BAR as his personal weapon, to beef up the squad's firepower. However, he then goes on to say that he ditched it within a few weeks, as it was just too damned heavy for little appreciable benefit!

Adam,
your comment has intrigued me, can you go into a little more depth on it?
whom did you serve with? thanks!
Joe