"La Hayre Sainte - where was the pond located?" Topic

Does anyone know where the pond was located in LHS?

Was it in the courtyard between the main gate and the barn or was it over the wall in the orchard?

I've seen various models where it is in either location.

However the books I've read all say it was inside

Help appreciated

Brendan Sims ('The Longest Afternoon', Penguin Books Ltd, 2014) has it in internally in the extreme south east between the east wall of the barn and the boundary wall.

Allan

go in through the main gate and it on your left, inside the walls.

link

Paul :)

The pond of course is long gone. I gather LHS has seen little change since 1815 however. The large barn is now extended to the West to the corner of the complex. Its west face and famous doorway were then stepped further back than the outer (west) wall of the stables. There is a lean to extension into the courtyard. The roof of the house had two rows of skylights, of the upper only one remains. The site of the old well on the north wall was converted into a small brick annex.

The loopholed south east wall is probably still gone. Indeed the east wall south of the gate was absent for years, to allow access. Replaced now for exactaly the opposite intent I would guess. I imagine the piggery was not as extensive as the modern efforts inside the east wall.

Interested in any other details………..

Thanks all for your help

I am currently reading the Sims book

a friend just sent me a link to this site

link

Alan

My Airfix version doesnt have a pond.

Wish this was my work but it does show where we all seem agreed lay the pond. One of those massive dioramas that only Germany can produce!

In one of the pics attached to the French article above, there is another building just north of the main house, clearly part of the farm. What was this? Does not appear on the map.

Also, the gate house is behind the wall in one picture, and in front on two others – did it move/was it rebuilt perhaps?

Also, interesting to see the colours in the postcards – one red brick, two whitewashed. I shall have to make two models

Interesting question. That building has been there since the earliest prints and was surely there in 1815. A great source of images is;

link

even if a bit repetitive. Interesting to see the minor changes with time eg skylights disappearing from farmhouse.
A great source of info on LHS (and Hougoumont too!) is;

PDF link

which says it was used for storing firewood. Worth reading the footnotes as well. Confess I always thought it was an "outhouse", but now think it might just be a bit grand for that.

The gate has always been flush with the east wall, not as in Airfix model or even the beautiful work above. What I have never been sure about is the southwest corner of the complex. Did the great barn extend as far west as now? Its door was famously burnt, but was it several feet further back than now seen?

The stables along the west wall did extend to meet the great barn. There was no wall over which to fire there, just an arched doorway.

Finally, the building colour? Red brick, whitewashed, with black pitch trim at ground level. All depends then how well the white was maintained!

Both of Siborne's Waterloo models, the smaller one focusing on the action around LHS, show the buildings without whitewash, and using a reddish brick throughout.
At some point, and obviously after Siborne made his models, the actual buildings were whitewashed, and that seems to be the convention for nearly all models and other representations that we see produced since Siborne did his research and work.
Siborne spent a lot of time studying that battlefield – I doubt he got the color of the buildings wrong for his models.

The earliest prints show whitewash, long before any monuments appear and the ridge is sacrificed for the mound. Not impossible that the whole farm got a coat of paint within months of the battle and fire within, but white is the local "local".

The picture mentioned shows a very red appearance, but very obviously some residual whitewash. I'll bet that on 18th June it was looking very scruffy, but white…….(ish)…. in places.

Confess I was thrown, years ago, when I first saw his models of both LHS and Hougomont in Leeds and Chelsea. I thought them surprisingly crude…simplistic.

Deadhead
I think for the time period that these models were made they are quite incredible – crude compared to modern examples maybe, but still quite incredible.
However I still find it odd, given Siborne's otherwise close attention to detail of the landscape (field networks and crops) that he elected to show LHS as red buildings with gray slate roofs.
Wouldn't it have been just as easy for him to have painted them white?

On those links, amazing how the gat house (ie 5 and 6 pic down) extends out – I can see how Airfix got it wrong if they used the available pictures. Also suggests there was a wall extending southward, but I have always understood that to be hedged. Artistic licence I guess.

Must agree it did surprise me that he did show it red with black slate roofs throughout. There is very good evidence for much use of red pantiles and white on walls was the local style. Then again, I admit, he took much trouble to whitewash the buildings of Plancenoit (see below) so why not LHS?
The building he got wrong in some important ways. The great barn extends the full length of the south perimeter (see below). There is no wall for loopholes, as so well known and no pond of course. The Farmhouse lacks chimneys, skylights….strangely crude considering the work he took to get the agriculture right. Hgmt is far better shown.

Model Victory and W's Smallest Victory are good accounts, if depressing!
My bet is still the appearance shown below, very patchy whitewash (the original KGL diamond dates it). Equally, bet you are right it was smartened up after being set on fire, nice coat of paint. Note the print below predates the lion mound, so very early.

Deadhead
The closest model in the top image is Mont St. Jean – LHS is towards the top of the photo above the highlighted areas. I've looked online, without much luck, for images of the Leeds Armory Siborne model, which represents LHS in more detail than the NAM model. It would be interesting to see how Siborne modeled the roofing in the Leeds model – as clearly he's shown them as red clay tiles in the NAM model, whereas they were in fact a blue/gray slate.
Whitewashing was a fairly labor intensive activity, and often times needs to be reapplied more than once a year, so it was often in a poor state of repair – dairy farms were more likely to use whitewash, as it was believed to keep the environment 'cleaner'.

Which explains why it looks so unlike LHS…………of course. The huge gate arch as well………and why the gardens and orchard are wrong……..we are looking south, not north.

Well, I was nearly right……….almost…….seriously though, well done!

I just love General Picton's blogspot
link
(not just because he shows Gendarmes d'Elite and Napoleon's carriage but he has very well researched LHS and Hgmt, warts and all, after the battle and burnt out. Some of the photography does not do justice to his research and modelling, but I am impressed that in LHS, the great barn does not extend as far west as it now does. That outbuilding is there………and he goes for the traces of whitewash look. He's even got the North Gate at Hgmt right as based on the earliest artwork of the ruins.
(At least this time I am not confusing it with Mt St J!)
Let me offer some tasters of his work;

Deadhead,
Clearly, the Duke's ire with Siborne had nothing to do with the placement of the troops and the appearance of the Prussians – he was obviously upset that Siborne had painted LHS the wrong color…… ;-)

BTW – Picton's building models are works of art!

You did raise a laugh with that.

By all accounts, Nosey refused to even inspect the models.

Are they not, indeed great buildings? He's even got the Chausee right, cobbled centre and earthen either side, (blackened by coal dust I gather).

Worrying that nothing has been added to Picton's blogsite in almost a year, when this is all of such quality.

I keep looking at Mt St Jean above and asking how did I get north and south so confused, after seeing this model so many times!

I think for the time period that these models were made they are quite incredible – crude compared to modern examples maybe, but still quite incredible.
However I still find it odd, given Siborne's otherwise close attention to detail of the landscape (field networks and crops) that he elected to show LHS as red buildings with gray slate roofs.
Wouldn't it have been just as easy for him to have painted them white?

It's a while since I read 'Smallest Victory' but I seem to recall that Siborne had all his models made for him. And that money and time were always in short supply. So perhaps his requirements were accurate but he was simply unable to get these type of errors corrected.

My mistake. Just dug out the book and Hofschroer states that, although Siborne had the figures cast for him, he built the buildings himself from cork or wood with the help of Sgt Starr of the Royal Artillery ("Wellingtons Smallest Victory" p 80).

I believe Siborne lived in LHS for eight months during his survey of the battlefield. Obviously this was a decade and more after the actual battle, but he must have discussed the appearance of the farm, as it had been in 1815, with the inhabitants or locals. Certainly the buildings in his models are not represented generically – they each seem to have their own character, with different colored walls and roofs – it would be good to think he applied as much accuracy to these as he did to the fields and the painting of the thousands of miniatures.

Deadhead,
Just saw this on another thread, but scroll over the map in the attached – this was prepared in August 1815.
LHS is clearly shown with blue/gray slate roofs, and red brick walls – the drawing also shows the wood shed in the kitchen garden – something often overlooked, so could have been sketched from life.

link

It is most convincing I must admit………….red brick walls it seems indeed, unpainted at the time.

I was just pointed towards the Windsor exhibition by another topic and immediately found another red bricked LHS!

link

and incidentally, notice how the doorway to the right is set further away from the artist, than the square doors to the left. The old barn did not extend to the west perimeter, a few feet short of it.