"French Revolutionary Wars, Tempted?" Topic

Is there much interest in this period and what scale would people be most likely to wargame it in? it has been suggested to me that it is too close to Napoleonics and that people who do Napoleonics (which is a lot I'd guess) wouldn't want to do FR as well – what do people think?

Lots of wargaming groups game the French Revolution. While figures are not as plentiful as 1805 and after -- they are out there. Buts lots of battles and campaigns to re-fight. Great stuff. Only problem I see is that you do need special rules since it was a period of evolution and you have to deal with the "new" French tactics resulting from the new type of soldier in the ranks and the slow evolution, of some Nations, from ridged column to alternative formations. But do definitely jump in.

THe French/Austrian campaigns and the Russians in Switzerland actually make better games than the Imperial period.

I have Austrian and French forces as everyone else has tons of Napoleonics. Rules like Shako and Age of Eagles work fine without any modifications. They have information for French Revolution.

I like the games because force size is manageable and evenly matched. Definitely an under gamed period.

It is my favourite period, excellent armies, interesting characters, battle fields from Egypt to the High Alps – however a bit scant of miniatures – my prime choice of figures so far, BH and AB.

However too many miniatures are missing, not to speak about such flamboyant units as Legion Noire.

How many years have we been griping about this,vonW? ;)

It's a great period, but to my great dismay the best and most complete line (Eureka) is in 28mm, which is a scale too large for me to manage the type of games I like to play. There are fairly good offerings for the French side of things in 6mm (Adler) and 15mm (AB), but the early Austrians, Prussians, and Russians seem to always be left out or left unfinished. I'm hoping to finish up (ha!) my ACW and Arthurian projects this year and ramp up the 1796-99 period, but I might have to settle for 1800.

CATenWolde, check out Chariot Miniatures 15mm early French revolution range (now Magister Militum). They have French, (even peasants!), Prussians (in proper Prussian uniform for Fr Rev) and Austrians. Battlehonours have a complete line of Russians (and Austrians) (I have a bunch for Suvorov's campaigns)

As far as Napoleonic players not wanting to play FR….utter tosh….

Thanks folks – that's what I thought too (the utter tosh bit …)
I was thinking of doing two different types of game in two scales – grant tactical, brigade level in either 15mm or 20mm and a lower level battalion level game in 28/30mm maybe with an old school feel to it …

Who wouldn't want to fight these wars?

Souvorov in Italy.
St Cyr and the Army of the Rhines
The rise of the Marshals.

Read Phipps and see what fun settings you have.

Too few 10mm figures at the moment.

Yep, 10mm has even fewer choices than 6mm or 15mm. :(

Dave – thank for the info on Chariot – I think the last time I looked at 15's the line was much more incomplete. It actually looks pretty good, although there appears to be some weird omissions, such as no command for the French chasseurs and no Austrian cuirassiers. The fact that the Prussians are only advancing is oddly annoying, but there I'm just being fussy. I guess they match pretty well in size with BH, both being older and more 15mm than 18mm?

Eureka miniatures does a beautifully sculpted line of French Revolutionary figures……Damn, now I am tempted!

Don't forget Trent Miniatures. They have some gaps, but look great, and cover oddities like the Caribbean and the Irish uprising of '98, along with French, Austrians, Poles and Russians for Europe. I use Maurice rules.

I have been painting them up off- and on- for years, but no one in my area games it, so I have to do both sides. Being a bit of a masochist, I am also painting up the Duke of York's army for the campaigns in Holland.

A related, neglected period is the Russo-Swedish War of 1788-1789, or the Polish Partitions. You can get figures from Frontier. However, non of the figures of the armies involved will work for the French Revolution.

I have slowly been painting up my 15mm army, using the old Frontier Miniatures (complete with errors) and whatever else I can find. We use Empire and it has plenty to offer for facing "regimental" armies. To further my gluttony for punishment, my concurrent project is 1806 Prussians, also for use with Empire.

CATenWolde, yes, there are some odd missing bits from Chariot. Sigh. what are you interested in? I have a few Prussian Rev figures left form when I represented Chariot in North America back in 90s. I will look and see what I have (I know I have some nicely painted Kuirassier for sale.

Contact me offline at: David.Jackson2@ec.gc.ca

I am using 20mm metal figs to begin an 1799-1800 time frame..French heavy cav are hard to find but hussars and dragoons not so much..Austrians in helmets for 1800 as well as Bavarians in helmets as Austrian allies in 1800..Russians are hard but 1806 Prussians work for line and 1806/7 pavlovos work for the grenadiers..since most of the cav was Cossacks in Italy that woks out fine…just an idea ..for a different look and a good value price wise got the figs from Dayton painting consortium AND outland games…

I bought a pile of BH Austrians and Russians last year and I am hoping to make a start on them soon.

I would be interested to hear any recommendations for reading on the campaigns and battles. I already have Phipps.

We do the wars in Italy 1796-1800 in 10mm, and are expanding onto the Rhine and into Holland… we have been slowly adding Russians and German States to our armies, mostly using Pendraken. I make Chevauleger out of their AWI British Light Dragoons, Freikorps out of British Light Infantry, and most of the Horse from the SYW lists. The officers come from the 1809 range (bicornes)…. you do what you must!

Andy how are the figures? I was considering BH but I had heard the molds were kinda worn.

Leadjunky

I haven't got them all out to have a proper look, but they look ok from what I have seen so far. I bought them from a chap on TMP, so I have no idea when they were cast.

Regards

"As far as Napoleonic players not wanting to play FR….utter tosh…." you should have a look at my sales figures for early stuff and the absence of interest in early Austrians EVEN though the range is basically done………….
L

Leon

I suspect that the problem is the lack of accessible material in English, particularly with respect to the campaigns not involving General Bonaparte (compared with the utter glut of material on the Napoleonic era). I have found much the same problem with the campaigns of the WSS not involving Marlborough.

Regards

Leon – I know we've gone around this before, but how can you judge the interest in the early Austrians if they are not released? Realistically, yes you probably would have a lot of people who would say "eh, I already have the Austrians in helmets" – but then again Napoleonic gamers are famously drawn to accurate uniforms, and yours would be the only ones out there in the smaller scales. I wonder how well the Eureka 28mm line is selling? It certainly looks like a huge effort.

I'm probably an extreme example, but a few years back I actually decided to start the ACW while I waited for the Napoleonic early period figure availability to improve. My first choice would be 6mm figures (your early French are outstanding) but I sometimes feel that I'll eventually have to either give up on the early period or go back to 15's.

It's an understandable dilemma from the manufacturer's perspective, but a frustrating one for gamers who see seemingly every single figure in the world being made today!

Cheers,

Christopher

I am in the same league as CAtenWolde, though I bought AB Austrians 1792 – 1800 – I am also buying Prussian Army of 1806 – instead of 1792 because there is none available in the quality I like for 1792.

French Revolutionary Wars are very much in the shadow of Napoleonics – which is a pity.

Magister Militum has been slowly and steadily increasing the French Revolution line. Perhaps if we delineated the gaps and a few of us contacted Magister Militum with commitments, we'd see some momentum. What additions are needed to the Austrians currently produced by Magister Militum (formerly the Chariot line)?

The French and Austrians from Chariot actually look pretty complete. One question is whether the packs are all single poses? The obvious gaps seem to be:

1. French Chasseurs in Tarleton, Command
2. French Chasseurs in Mirliton, Troopers and Command (Unless the Hussars in Mirliton don't have a pelise, but then perhaps Hussars in pelise? Or just use later figures in shako?)
3. French Horse Artillerists in Tarleton (and Mirliton?)
4. Austrian Hussar, Dragoon, and Uhlan Command
5. Austrian Cuirassier in Bicorne, Troopers and Command
6. Austrian Grenzers in kobluk

They seem to really like advancing poses for everyone, which I don't care for, but that's a matter of personal taste. However, I would add:

French Fusiliers in Tarleton, Marching
Prussian Infantry Marching

Some of these can be had from other lines (BH, AB, Minifigs), but I haven't gone back and looked at everything, or looked at the Prussians closely.

Speaking of wasted efforts, what was up with Minifigs creating a huge (and pretty nicely done) early French line, and then only producing *British* in Egypt to fight them? Really? Does anyone know if other figures were sculpted but never made it to the light of day?

Cheers,

Christopher

I've been tempted to try using Oddzial Osmy 3mm to do two simple armies. You could definitely get away with some campaigns at that scale. They have the three big pre-reqs: bicorne infantry, bicorne cav and bicorne arty. And grenadiers! Hussars as well. I'm sure mirlitons aren't far away as people need them for 1812. Tempting, especially since you can rock 1:1 with the size of those battles at a reasonable cost.

Ok, this is an honest question – can you tell the difference between infantry/cavalry in shakos and in casquets in that scale? I'm assuming they don't have figures in casquets …

Hi CATenWolde,

Concerning your comments about Minifigs' 15mm French Revolution range, I have wondered the same thing too. Maybe their 15mm FRW French and British just didn't sell that well, so Minifigs decided not to go any further with Austrians, Prussians, Russians, etc.

This is just a little off-topic, but I have sometimes thought Minifig's 15mm AWI range could have really been something special, but was just a little too limited in its variety.

Jeff

P.S. I haven't done much painting on them, but I am very pleased with the AB pre-1798 Austrians and early French figures that I own.

Sorry but with the 200 anniversary of Waterloo coming up…I cant think of anything else :). Besides, Waterloo was the battle that got me in this hobby.

CATenWalde,

A fair enough question. In fact you can use the Austrian infantry with helmets to represent them. And, sitting here with some of those figs and the shako French side-by-side I can report that there is indeed a visible difference.

Check it out:

link

Any minor differences you can account for using painting techniques. Get a pack and try them out- 3mm look much better in person than photographed.

I am doing now the Austrians in 18 mm AB and BH

BH Austrian cuirassiers (which are great)
AB of their new Austrian series (1792 – 1800 uniforms)
The complete range

Still quite a bit is missing, hopefully someone might fill those in the desired AB or Sho Boki quality

Chevaulegers, Jδger and some Freikorps.

Hopefully eventually a good up to date line of

French, Prussian, Russian and British will be eventually produced – ok a dream, but dreams have to be dremt.

I have been working on a 1799 project slowing building French , Austrian, and Russian forces in 18mm using AB Miniatures.

Photos of the project thus far:

French:
link
link

Austrian:
link
link

Russian:
link
link

@Von Winterfeldt:

Lovely AB Austrian grenadiers!

@JonFreitag

Impressive effort, what AB Russians did you use?

BH does some 1799 ones – I painted some Russian Jδger which look quite good

@von Winterfeldt

I am sure the purists will bemoan my choices, but I used the early 1805-1811 Russians from AB. I know the coat is not quite right but close enough for me. The bicornes work for the musketeer regiments, fusilier mitres for the grenadier regiments, and grenadiers with the tall mitres for the combined grenadier battalions.

I have been tempted to give the BH range a look but good reviews seem to be difficult to find. How would you rate the various BH figures wrt ABs?

Unfortunatly I painted only some Russian Jδger – ages ago, I think the Russians of BH should be pretty good, they are smaller as the later work of AB – but look very nice.

It is not only the uniforms, it is the equipment as well, the Russians in 1799 had – most noteworthy a different pack, sitting on the hip, a bit similar to the Austrians in 1792

A pity that AB never ever completed his very interesting ranges of figures of the French Revolutionary Wars.

Particularly the French miniatures, seeminly one of his first figures in that ranges are quite small.

Those 15's are temptingly well done, and it turns out there are more options than I thought in that scale.

However, I always come back to the ground scale conundrum. If you want a ground scale of 1" = 50 yards (like I do), then a battalion has an average frontage of 80mm, and you get the following unit sizes:

15mm: 8 figures in a single rank
6mm: 32 figures in double ranks

This is what had sold me on 6mm, which (at least in the Adlers I have), still have enough detail and character to represent the period pretty well. I think you could fit 80x 3mm figures in 2 ranks on the same frontage, but I'm not convinced about the look (for this period, although for larger later games they might be interesting).

imho..

if frontage is 80mm, then I get..

15(18)mm: 10 figures in a single rank
6mm: 48 figures in double ranks

It is shocking to see that nobody did the BH Russians of 1799

I'm working on Marengo in 15mm at the moment, which can be looked at as the end of the French Revolutionary Wars or the start of the Napoleonic Wars. My painting isn't nearly as good as von Winterfeldt's but the collection is growing steadily. marengo1800.blogspot.co.uk

AB's FRW Austrians are fantastic and I would have more if the price was better.

I don't have any BH as they aren't easily available, and photo previews are limited.

I also have some of the Chariot figures, but they are a lot smaller than the other figures I have.

Sho – I forgot that you have an early Austrian fusilier in casquet in your production line, so that's a huge step forward right there.

I'm sure if you just look at 80mm of frontage you could fit in more figures, but to be flexible in game terms that 80mm will be divided into a minimum of 2x 40mm, or as I calculated it 4x 20mm.

But I actually calculate with 20mm blocks or even smaller ones..

Standard base with 3 figures have max 10mm frontage.

Ah! Your figures are based very tightly – and look good, but was going from Adlers. You can cram 5 Adlers on a 20mm frontage with the figures physically touching (which is the number I should have used), but that's it. Aren't Baccus also in 5 figures per 20mm strip?

I've only seen your early Austrian fusilier as a single sculpt – will they be sold individually, or in strips like those above?

Line infantry will be in "ready for use" strips by 3 figs.

For really big battles 4 this strips act as one game unit and are exactly the same as 4 block for small battles on picture above. Plus markers of course.

Does anyone have any suggestions for books (in English) on the campaigns not involving Bonaparte(other than Phipps)?

There are plenty on George Nafzigers web site, he translated a lot of books form Chuquet and also other authors – good value for money as well.

Then visist google books or other sites and check for Fortescue.

Interesting discussion, and thanks for the compliments about the AB Early Austrians .
If I can only muster the energy, it would be nice to have another look at the 1799 BH " Suvorov "Russians. I sill have some of the original masters ( not all , alas ) and it would be fun to re-release them with some more variety: they were very limited in the number of poses, mostly because we knew at the time they would never sell well .
I am the copyright owner .
The problem is that they were hardly big sellers : two( no, three ! ) enthusiasts do not make it a very viable proposition, and I have a lot of other work which I am constantly being urged to do.

Another problem is the dearth of original images to work from.At the time I originally made them ( long pre-Web ) there was almost nothing available as reference, apart from the odd plate in a couple of books.
Perhaps someone can point me to a better source ?

@Anthony Barton

There are a lot of excellent sources on the net, like

link

then go to Chapter VII, VIII, IX – 1796 – 1801

also for text (in English)

link

Then there are some nice works on it, in a series in the French Tradition Magazine – Patrice Courcelle did a very nice coverage of the Russian Infantry and there is a volume in Russian by Ulianow doing this army.

Of course, in case one wants to invest some money, there is a big volume – recently published just about this army in Russian – as I understand – with a lot of immages in colour.

Also Eureka did a nice PDF – cannot find the link – about the Russian infantry and cossacks of 1799.

I bought ages ago your complete BH range of French Revolutionary period – but at the moment, my plan is to paint your new Austrians 1792 – 1800 – issued by Eureka – which are fantastic.

In case of need of further references let me know – I have quite a lot on the hard drive of my pc

@CATenWolde

Sho Boki did a very nice Austrian fusilier of 1792 in 6 mm with the state of the art research, no wooden Tschudera but with the correct white metal water bottle – I am committed for the moment however for 18 mm minatures