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"The VAT thing ...where are we all at now?" Topic


15 Posts

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MichaelCollinsHimself04 Jan 2015 5:23 a.m. PST

I thought it might be useful (or just vaguely interesting) to keep ourselves posted and updated about how we`re progressing/dealing with it.

I`ve just submitted my VAT request and registered with Taxamo – not the best way to spend Sunday morning perhaps, but I`ve made a start and I think that I managed to negotiate past the trick-questions in the form… and answered to the best of my ability :P

A "much ado" as they say… no sales this year yet to EU countries other than UK – so, what the heck, I thought, I`ll absorb any chargeable VAT in the meantime !

So fellow British games produces etc… how are you doing with it?

Best Regards,

Mike.

Personal logo BigRedBat Sponsoring Member of TMP04 Jan 2015 6:36 a.m. PST

I turned off the automated features in my shop on the 31st. :-(

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP04 Jan 2015 9:28 a.m. PST

You are talking about what?
Something changed in UK VAT regulations?

Personal logo Herkybird Supporting Member of TMP04 Jan 2015 9:59 a.m. PST

TMP link

Is the link you need to catch up!

Elenderil04 Jan 2015 10:19 a.m. PST

I'm not a micro wargames business BUT I am a UK based tax consultant (although not a VAT specialist). Let me do a bit of digging and talk to a couple of specialists in VAT and I will report back on the current thinking on where we are heading to in the UK on this issue.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP04 Jan 2015 1:56 p.m. PST

Aaa.. the MOSS regulations.

Actually not a such dramatic problem, if digging in.

We will not add VAT, but subtract from final price. Retaining the same price for all customers, what is essential for using PayPal too.

The biggest VAT is in Hungary – 27%, but other bigger are 25%. So if we have 20% VAT in UK or Estonia, then our selling prices rise max 4-5%. And that all.

Our Tax-offices offer possibilities to declare and pay this MOSS VAT in homeland, four times on year, without registering in target countries.

EMPERORS LIBRARY05 Jan 2015 12:13 a.m. PST

I have stopped offering downloads and will instead start offering themed collections on disk.

vexillia05 Jan 2015 4:25 a.m. PST

I turned off the automated features in my shop on the 31st. :-(

I know this is a much touted workaround but I've seen comments from HMRC (UK) that suggest this is a fudge.

The basis for this is that manually emailing customers the same file they would have got had the system been automated doesn't "qualify" as significant human intervention. The intention of the latter seems to be more about personalisation of content rather than the mechanism of delivery

So I'd enjoy the fudge while you can. We all know that what the HMRC giveth they can take away. :-(

--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
Shop | Rules | Offers | Facebook | Twitter

battleeditor05 Jan 2015 8:52 a.m. PST

The best website to check is euvataction.org

I'm also involved with helping on their new Facebook campaign page link and have been appointed VATMOSS spokesman for the Alliance of Independent Authors.

If you're selling digital products, I would also recommend Payhip.com as a possible solution. they guarantee to handle ALL the VAT matters on your behalf and only charge a 5% fee on top of whatever PayPal takes, which is extremely reasonable compared to other solutions that tend to take 40%+ of your cover price.

Henry
MWBG

Personal logo BigRedBat Sponsoring Member of TMP05 Jan 2015 11:02 a.m. PST

Hi Martin, yes it is a bit nerve-racking. :-/

I may move to only selling downloads along with a physical component (such as playing cards) in due course. Of course, this wouldn't help if the VAT is extended to physical products, next year. :-(

vexillia09 Jan 2015 7:47 a.m. PST

Read this from bit.ly/149FmmT and weep (especially #2 & #5):

Impossible Things To Do Before Breakfast, Including Complying With EU VAT

To help national governments and the EU to understand why their current, "there, there, dear" response isn't adequate, we have been collating a list of aspects of the legislation that are ‘impossible' or at best economically unviable and unreasonable, for micro businesses.

It's a work in progress, as people start trying to comply, but here are five of our ‘favourites' so far:

[1] Display the correct price
You don't know where a customer is based until the final stage of the checkout process. The UK and some other Member States require you to display the VAT-inclusive price at all times. You can't do this unless you know where your customer is and if you insist on them declaring their country before visiting your sales page, you're likely to use the sale.

Even if you could get their country, the 90% of businesses below 100,000 € turnover use PayPal's ‘buy now' buttons, rather than a shopping cart, so you wouldn't be able to display the correct price. It's coded into the website page, not the shopping cart.

Most micro businesses are having to bypass this by applying a best guess ‘fudge factor' to cover VAT and then work it out afterwards. This causes UK and worldwide prices to go up unnecessarily, to compensate for Hungary's 27%, and is already costing people sales because the digital market is so price-competitive. And it's a completely unjustifiable level of admin for the sale of, say, a €2.99 EUR e-book.

[2] Manually email, to bypass the VATMOSS rules, but actually get the email to arrive
We have already seen people whose Yahoo accounts have been blocked for spamming because manually sending a pdf to a stranger (a customer) multiple times a day sets off the spam alerts for the main free email providers. This effectively closes this person's business until they can get their account unblocked. As requested, we will write to the key email providers for statements on this.

Even if you can send the pdf, most incoming email servers automatically reject emails with large file attachments from people not in your address book or whitelist, because there is a high risk that these are from spammers or contain a virus file.

So we have moved from instant downloads with happy customers to grumpy customers who have to wait for a manual email that may or may not ever arrive. Getting a reputation for spam can also cause your email address – and even your website server – to be blacklisted as a spammer, meaning you are then dropped from Google search results.

[3] Apply the correct rate of VAT.
Most of these businesses use PayPal or other very small business shopping carts. Some of these CAN handle country-based VAT, but not until the final stage of the checkout process. And they can't handle multiple rates per country. If you sell an e-book (with ISBN) and a pre-recorded course to a customer in Italy, the transaction requires two different VAT rates.

If you sell that same e-book with a live webinar, then the e-book is taxable in the place of supply, but the webinar is exempt from the new rules and is taxable in the business's country. So you could have two different countries in one transaction. Micro businesses are not set up to handle this level of complexity.

[4] Accurately collect the place of supply
Customers will quickly realise that, for example, pretending to be in Luxembourg gets them a discount. It is easy for a customer to declare a false address on a web page. It is also easy to use software to fake your IP location. As studies have shown this week, IP addresses are also incorrect in up to 10% of cases.

And if customers buy during their lunch break at work, most companies use secure VPN instead of IP, so you wouldn't get the IP data. It's not available from mobile devices. So the customer's declared address and the system IP address are not reliable pieces of data.

And most micro businesses don't have access to data such as the country code of the landline / mobile used for the transaction or the credit card bank details – and nor should they. These businesses simply cannot comply with the place of supply data collection requirements. And if the customer is buying after clicking an email link then they potentially never visit your website, so you have no way of collecting anything other than their PayPal account address.
And there are huge concerns with them storing this data for 10 years.

[5] Get the Member States to agree on what ‘digitally-delivered' means.
The UK HMRC has been helpful and has issued clear guidance [sic], clarifying it and adding definitions each time we have requested them. However, these definitions are quite different to those in, for example, Holland and Spain. In those states, the proportion that is ‘digital' falls under the law and the proportion that is live doesn't.

In the UK, any product with more than minimal human intervention is exempt. A business cannot comply with the different definitions for each of the 28 Member States.

--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
Shop | Rules | Offers | Facebook | Twitter

The Big C16 Jan 2015 6:24 a.m. PST

Revenue & Customs Brief 46 is now out and should help micro businesses a bit

MichaelCollinsHimself18 Jan 2015 5:23 a.m. PST

Revenue & Customs Brief 46 was issued on the 10th Dec 2014 – I don`t think that anything has changed since then.

Guthroth18 Jan 2015 7:12 a.m. PST

I skimmed through it, and since UK VAT is on the low side at 20%, it's just a charter to prevent me buying from outside the UK. I might buy from Germany (19%), but I doubt that I will even bother to look anywhere else.

Well done the EU, a fantastic job of constricting trade …

bgbboogie20 Jan 2015 7:19 a.m. PST

Ebay will get clobbered as will any e commerce going through Pay Pal and the rest, it is unavoidable I am afraid for the businesses.

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