"Naked warriors women or at war in the History?" Topic

Hello

the case of Greeks, Celts naked warriors is well known, there were cases of females warriors or peoples where the women were totally naked at war?

Only in my dreams and the fantasy's of Victorian illustrators…

Well known with the Greeks? Gay lib fantasy and Ph.D. dissertation argument point, I think. Only Greek case with evidence that isn't artistic convention is that case mentioned in Plutarch of the young man who ran straight from the bath to the ramparts. Significantly, he was mistaken for a god by the combatants (well, so we're told), and fined by his own leaders for acting like a gung-ho idiot.

Of course… see them here!. (smile)

TMP link

Amicalement
Armand

Probably not, Lilian. My understanding is that in every human culture, women wear at least a loin cloth or something equivalent to it. This even in societies which allow the males to run around naked. Greek amazonomachy vases I've seen may have the males wearing only a helmet, but the females are shown in either Persian style clothes or wearing a short tunic.

Wargames Ancient Indian armies often include the possibly mythical Maiden Guard units. These ladies are typically depicted in skirt and headdress: link

Going into battle naked isn't that bright an idea, when you come down to it, either for guys or gals. It's a nasty world out there, with stickers, thorns, pointy rocks, etc. One source I read rates boots as providing a major increase in troop effectiveness over sandals in late antiquity.

Societies have usually tried to keep their women out of battle. There have been the Maiden Guard units in India and Burma (maybe), the Dahomey amazons in 19th century Africa, Russian Death Battalions in World War I and the Rosa Luxembourgo Bandera in the Spanish Civil War, but aside from a few such units, women have fought on an individual basis.

Women are known to have served in the Northern army during the American Civil War. The US Sanitary Commission estimates that about 400 women enlisted in the army in varying degrees of disguise. This out of a population of 22,000,000 or one per 55,000 people in the country. While the Sanitary Commission's statistic is open to question, clearly we aren't talking about vast numbers of female combatants.

Going back to your original question, did it ever happen, well, there is always the possibility Sobieski presents of somebody having to go right into a fight from a normally nude activity, like bathing or Tango's scenario of somebody having had a few more drinks than were good for them. So, if you have a nude female figure, and want to give her weapons, go for it. However, I don't think anybody ever practiced the use of naked female warriors in a planned and premeditated manner.

Grelber

@Glengarry5 *fantasies

My understanding is that in every human culture, women wear at least a loin cloth or something equivalent to it. This even in societies which allow the males to run around naked.

By my understanding, there have been some Amazonian tribes in Southern America where both genders tended to go around totally naked, though some of the men might have worn a ceremonial sheath to cover their private bits.

However, I am not aware of the women having fought in those cultures.

There's also the fact that "naked" in many literary genres does not mean absolutely without clothes, but in a poor or inadequate state of dress.

The "Inniskillings" (British Army 27th Regt of Foot) were reputedly given the nickname "The Skins" for (ahem) standing to when an enemy advance caught them bathing (I assume this was in Spain). How true this is, I know not.

Celtic women sometimes fought up to the institution of Cain Adomnan in the 7th Century AD. Not naked though.

OK … The Greeks exercised naked but fought clothed and making use of whatever armour was available to them. The Celts wore clothing (though probably would not have understood modern western distinctions between clothed and unclothed) and had a heroic tradition of fighting naked. In ancient Egypt children and servants – especially female servants – are usually shown naked or just with belts.

The Greeks did not use underwear (so naked was naked) except for artistic evidence of phallus strings for male athletes and chest bands for female athletes. Probably for runners.

Women fighting in the ancient world is rare indeed and the Greeks would have considered it inappropriate if not laughable. The Amazons are fantasy figures and seem to mix Greek prejudices about Persians being effeminate with their own male-dominated social order (for Athens, the triumph of men over amazons is the triumph of male order over female disorder and is the foundation myth of their society). Consequently you could depict Amazon women (and the Greeks did) naked, in Greek female costume or in Persian/Scythian male costume. But it is all mythological.

Boudica commanded a British force against the Romans (but there is no evidence that she fought) … Artemisia commanded a trireme at Salamis … and some think Pharaoh Hatshepsut may have gone to war … These and many other female commanders (exercising power through position) would have been normally attired and armoured if appropriate (and likely not in the fighting).

In Roman times there is good evidence for female gladiators but again no evidence of them fighting naked.

As above, your best subjects for naked or near naked female warriors are either mythical Amazons or historical Indian Maiden Guards (though you would need input from a specialist in Indian history – so not me – to get very far on that subject …) …

Phil

According to Gore Vidal who took an interest in that sort of thing young Athenian men wore wooly drawers during the winter.

I'm more inclined than not to think that Boudica and Cartamandua fought given the expectations of their society.

Grelber has ticked off the top points and pretty much put "finis" to the question. The rest is all artistic interpretation and fantasies, that is-- fantasies.

To take a tangent from Grelber's -- it's a cruel world out there and in addition to thorns, pointy rocks and stickers, there's chiggers, fleas, spiders, centepedes snakes et all, and then there's sun poisoning from over exposure, frost, cold wet blah blah blah, none of which is going to go away just because you want to strip down and have battle.

Grelber also is correct about boots. There are dozens of worm-like parasites that can enter the body through unprotected feet wich can cause a wasting death.

Clothes have nothing to do with modesty and everything to do with survival. Even ordinary clothes can offer some protection against edged weapons and projectiles, and for women the layers of covering can give them a few moments to fend off a rapist and think of a way to get away.

As Grelber said, it's a nasty world out there.

There is that Nordic tale of the woman in the New World, facing Scraelings, who picked up the sword of a fallen "Viking" and caressed or spanked (both?) her bared breasts with the flat of the blade. The Juju thus invoked frightened off the Native American warriors. Though clothed at first, I would consider that woman nekked in the most literal sense….

As above, your best subjects for naked or near naked female warriors are either mythical Amazons or historical Indian Maiden Guards (though you would need input from a specialist in Indian history – so not me wink – to get very far on that subject …) …

No expert either, but maiden guard are also known from Indian-influenced cultures in SE Asia.

Megasthenes says Indian kings were accompanied by armed women equipped as if going on campaign – possibly meaning they weren't, in fact, brought along on real campaigns?

There is reasonable evidence in terms of weapon furnished graves, for women fighting in Scytho Sarmatian society. Herodotos tLe of the Amazons could have a kernel of truth. There the Scythian Warriors go off to raid in Mesopotamia and are a long time away. There women mate with their subject peoples and resist their return. it is quite possible that women rode and fought and would expect to defe nd flocks and tents when the men were away. That would give a source for the Greek myths that has the right clothing style (Iranian) and be in the right area, north of the Black Sea.. Unfortunately the Amazons are always shown fighting clothed.
It would be much easier for women to take part in combat as horse archers as you do not need to be as heavy, tall or physical to be effective in that role. I would have thought that even physically fit and toughened women would lose out against a fit man pushing with a shield or hitting hRd with spear or sword.
A tennis match was mooted between Venus? Williams and Andy Murray and Miss Williams , who is no slouch, felt that she would stand no chance.I suggest that even a good women's rugby team would quail before an average men's side, America Football between the sexes does not bear thinking about.

Interesting story I read recently in a UK national newspaper from an ex-RM WO1.

A few years ago, the fittest five women in HM Armed Forces were selected and entered onto the Royal Marines' officer training course. Two dropped out in week one; the other three also failed soon after, but were kept on at the orders of the top brass, and allowed to finish the course after certain elements of it (which they were unable to perform due to size) were removed. He also mentioned that Dame Kelly Holmes – an Olympic gold medallist – had turned down an offer to take the SAS recruitment test.

Lewisgunner – though I agree with you overall, I think quite a lot of male rugby teams (at least outside the Aviva/Rabo) would toil to beat the England women's team. The women would toil at the line-out, but their scrum would be very difficult to beat since they'd be so short.

hello

Taiping rebellion, march 1853
naked chinese women used at the siege of Nanjing as psyops superstitious measure by the garrison

many thought that the Taiping rebels had supernatural powers (…). In the middle of the fight, the Taiping fell on their knees to pray, alarming the Qing soldiers, who thought they were invoking evil spirits against them.

Then the defenders fought magic with magic:
they brought naked women on the ramparts to counterbalance the excess of yīn 陰 (=disorder) outside by more yīn (=female) in the city.
It seemed to have some effect: silhouettes bearing religious clothing appeared outside the walls. Rumor spread that Guandi, the god of war had come to the rescue of the city

the naked women didn't save Nanjing

Hey, there is a guy on this thread with a name, "Oh ", but whenever I try to use the term, "" they "BLEEP" it!?!?!?