"Counterproductive "hero" speeches" Topic

Two examples.

At Helm's Drrp, Atagorn spends most of his time telling the poor peasants stuck there that they haven't hot a chance , but at least they can die fighting.

After his first victory, Robb Stark takes pains to tell his celebrating men that the war is not won, Ned is still a prisoner, etc.

Why would anybody follow these Debbie Downers?
Seriously I think it's scriptwriters throwing in some anti war speeches to assuage their own consciences. Do they ever stop to think how jarring this sounds? Is it that they cannot abide real heroes and can only have anti heroes?

No I think in many ways it's just being realistic. You can look at many real speeches, for example Ike on D-Day ("your task will not be an easy one, your enemy is well trained, well equipped and battle hardened, he will fight savagely"), Patton, (from the movie but that speech was based on a number of addresses he actually gave to 3rd Army, ("No b*st*rd ever won a war by dying for his country") the Commander of the 100th Bombardment Group ("you're not going to be heroes, your going to be baby killers and women killers) or Captain Parker on Lexington Green ("We don't want a fight but if they mean to have a war let it begin here") I think that sometimes too much is made of the "rah-rah" stuff. Look at the reaction of some of the British Sailor's at Trafalgar to Nelson's "England Expects…." message. A lot of them were offended, they said that they always did their duty without England expecting it. Or as Collingwood put it, "I wish that Nelson would stop signaling."

You forgot Eric's farewell speech in "Eric the Viking".

David Strathairn's speech from the Godzilla trailer, that fortunately wasn't in the movie. A little rah-rah, or 'The Apocalypse is cancelled!' would have gone down better, for me at least. As would arming every guy with a grenade launcher.

Another vote for Eric's speech.

I like the speech by Samuel Jackson in Deep Blue

In a similar vein to Sam's speech:

The "Hero" in the beginning of Feast:

Hero: Listen to me. A storm o'hell's coming down on this place any second. I don't know what they are, I don't know where they came from. All I do know is that these ers are fast, nasty, and hungry… and there's four of 'em. They got claws like Ginsu knives and more teeth than a chainsaw. They're comin'… right now. So we gotta lock this bar down. That means doors, windows, drains, and zippers, and we gotta do it now. You! Get a phone, call the cops, National Guard, townies, anybody who kicks ass, and get 'em out here. Any questions?

Bartender: Yeah. Who the hell are you?

Hero: I'm the guy that's gonna save your ass.

[a monster immediately reaches through the window and kills him]

You are missing the point jowady.
In both Aragorn's and Robb's case, they are saying that you are all going to die, and it will be pointless.

I've always believed that "arrogance" has more of a chance to condemn you than anything else. Robb is being real in saying that one battle does not win the war. *SPOILERS* When Robb begins to win a lot of battles, he starts to become more confident that he is going to win. Billy Idol has a "Red Wedding," because of that *SPOILERS*. It may seem to be counter-productive, but I think being real is one of the best moves a commander can do.

Personally, one of my favorite counter-speeches is also from A Song of Ice and Fire. Tyrion's speech from the Battle of the Blackwater:

"Don't fight for a king. Don't fight for his kingdoms. Don't fight for honor, don't fight for glory, don't fight for riches, because you won't get any. This is your city Stannis means to sack. That's your gate he's ramming. If he gets in it will be your house that burns. Your gold he steals, your women he rapes. Those are brave men knocking at our door. Let's go kill them!"

To be fair, in the film, Aragorn never addresses the "peasants" that way. He's either lecturing Theoden or responding to Legolas's statement of hopelessness, not giving a speech, so that example doesn't really count. It's been awhile since I've read the novel, but I don't recall any despairing speeches from Aragorn. Theoden or Eomer typically trot out the "let's all die together in a lost but noble cause" lines, in the style of Saxon poetry.

I've always like Chief O'Brien's speech in the DS9 episode To the Death.
The crew is allied with the Jem'Hadar to fight a rogue Jem'Hadar faction.
The alien commander gathers his men and gives this encouraging pep talk: "I am First Omet'iklan, and I am dead. As of this moment, we are all dead. We go into battle to reclaim our lives. This we do gladly, for we are Jem'Hadar. Remember, victory is life."
Hearing this, Chief O'Brien turns to his own men and says, "I am Chief Miles Edward O'Brien. I'm very much alive and I intend to stay that way."
:-)

Like Parzival said…

If memory serves, it was not a speech for the benefit of the men, it was a back-and-forth in elvish, a language they do not understand, so it is not necessarily demoralizing.

When he slips and says a bit-o-doom they can comprehend, Legolas tells him to man-up. Aragorn is STILL encourages others on an individual basis afterwards (the kid.)

Unless you are referring to something else.

Rob never says they will die and it is pointless, he says don't celebrate just yet, a long road lies ahead… he is stopping a first (stellar) victory from turning into army-wide overconfidence (my opinion.)

Aragorn picks up the sword issued to the kid. "Piece of crap but it's sufficient to have in your hand when the orcs kill us all."
Something like that. Whatever he said to the kid, it didn't seem to give him much confidence.
"Our job is to give the women and children a few more minutes of life before the hordes eat and rape them all."

Sorry guys, but all he does is mope about ruining morale.

Actually, Aragorn (in the movie) says 'this is a good blade, Halas, son of Hama'. So not remotely 'piece of crap…', um, even if that's what it looked like to me ;)

Yes, Aragorn was lying through his teeth to give the kid confidence. It is the king at Helm's Deep that gave the "we will make it such and end" speech.

I don't remember Stark's speech at all, for whatever that is worth.

Bluto's speech from Animal House. Now that is motivating!

John the OFM, what do you think they said at the Alamo? And I don't remember Robb saying that they were going to die.

I don't know what they said at the Alamo.
"I'm a screamer !"?

A couple of things to keep in mind – JRR Tolkien fought in WWI. He had opportunity to witness first hand the seeming visceral hopelessness of trench warfare and fought personally in the battle of Somme. His experience was heavily incorporated as part of his world. With LOTR /Hobbit he was trying to stylize his perception of horrific events and a world where that horror existed. He most likely got to hear a lot of these type of "inspirational" speeches from politicians and in the trenches and (as a Leftenant in the Lancashire Fusilliers) probably gave a few. For his books, I also think he had a driving need to make these speeches "mean" more than they did in his own experience – but the underlying experience base bled through his writing. Further, I think several of his LOTR pre-battle speeches reflect the influences of his life an wartime experiences.

As for GRRM, he borrows most of his stuff from history (books and myth) or other fantasy authors so his writings seem to be a reflection of this influence…not particularly original (borrows from Herodotus, Seutonius, Plutarch, Caligula, Alexander, Shakespeare, Grimms Fairy Tales, and WW2/Cold War political intrigue) but a decent read if you like reading reality show drama at the extreme (with dragons, undead, and ice wraiths). I personally like it but recognize it as surface character presentation and an amalgam of others input and not experience based influence. Note: both author's writings are still fantasy…JRRT just seems to be a little deeper than GRRM (if not a lot more stylistic.)

From a personal perspective – I had a commander (a Major) who began an operation by telling everyone that we were being paid more than we were worth and it was up to us to earn our pay. (The only thing he inspired was an intense discussions of friendly fire incidents in combat…to which the NCO's had to address on their own time to keep things functioning effectively.) The worst part of his speech was that the Major thought he was King Henry V giving the Saint Crispin's Day speech. Full of posturing, dramatic pauses, and bold leadership poses. Good theatre but bloody awful leadership…

The best speech was given to me by an old First Sergeant who simply stated, "Do your best, follow the plan, listen to your NCO's and try not to get hurt. If you need help shout out. We will call in support." This was followed by a later comment of, "Don't go Boom." In short, most "speeches" were discussions of the operation/activity with brief discussion of safety. Most OP Plans are very boring and do not give an inspired feeling but they do give you the information you need for combat. It might be good for survival but "real world" discussions do not fit well into a novel or TV show.

I do not think real "heroes" give inspirational speeches. For the most part they just do their jobs and execute their plans as they deem necessary while everything else is going to hell. (And at the same time trying not to die or get anyone else injured or killed.) Most of the inspirational pre-battle speech instances seem to be a creation of Shakespeare, Hollywood or as part of revisionist history (with the exception of some political posturing / politician's speeches). Most real talks are more in line with General McAuliffe's response to the German request for surrender at Bastogne…"Nut's" (Go to hell.) or a variation of "kill them before they kill you" or "be careful/don't die." From my time in the military I never heard one commander/leader give an inspirational speech. Generally everything was based on plans, objectives, and intent execution. (rounded out with contingency planning.) Most inspiration came from your friends, the need to do your job/get the mission done, and just wanting to get back home.

Tolkien's experiences in the Great War are not relevant here because the scene in question is invented by Peter Jackson for the movie.
Ditto Robb's scene. Speech invented for TV.

@Winston

You are correct if you are only addressing the two example scenes. I was addressing the larger "counterproductive hero speeches." Hence the inclusion of some personal experiences.

Q: Would anybody follow these "Debbie Downers?"
A: Yes. They would not be happy but they would follow them. As what choice do they have. Plus…it is in the script.

Q: Seriously I think it's scriptwriters throwing in some anti war speeches to assuage their own consciences. Do they ever stop to think how jarring this sounds? Is it that they cannot abide real heroes and can only have anti heroes?
A: I do not know about the script writers or producers entering anti-war sentiment into each scene. Maybe. I tend not to take anything on TV (and the movies) with too much concern as most of it is for entertainment purposes only. (This relates to my discussion of actual pre-battle speeches being much different from scripts, books and political speeches.) Not to mention that Hollywood, the small screen, and the viewing public are infatuated with anti-heroes. That is part of the formula for the modern "reality TV." Everyone seems to love the bad boy.

As a side note: I just finished John Garth's book, "Tolkien and the Great War" a few months ago and I guess I was reading too much into the question(s). I stand corrected in reference to those two scenes. My bad.

I think Rob Stark is the example of a character that the writers have no idea what they were doing with they just wanted to rush him to his red wedding. A better speech would have been something to the effect of: "Men what we have done here today is a great thing, but it is not the end. My father and sisters are still captives of the false king and his evil regent. But across this field I see true men, northmen and rivermen. Yes its true that Tywhin Lanister has all the gold in Casterly Rock, but he does not have the Umbers, or the Manderlys, or the Boltons, or Tullys, or the Freys. And they are what has given me this victory. If Tywhin and his Towering mountain and Yapping Hound and Braying Goat wish to come at us at the head of an army of Mercenaries, let them. We shall do to them, what we have done here, for we are true men and brothers!"