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"maintenance nearly everyday??!" Topic


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25 Dec 2014 3:38 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Crossposted to TMP Talk board

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Comments or corrections?

fred218425 Dec 2014 4:31 a.m. PST

At a risk of backlash. How does a forum have so much maintenance going on. What is the maintenance for? Its practically every day!!

FreddBloggs25 Dec 2014 5:22 a.m. PST

It is everyday, and runs from just after 8am GMT to just before 10am GMT.

What is it for, no one really knows…

14Bore25 Dec 2014 6:31 a.m. PST

If your going to have employees you have to have something for them to do I guess. :)

MajorB25 Dec 2014 8:03 a.m. PST

What is the maintenance for? Its practically every day!!

Database re-indexing.

If you're going to have employees you have to have something for them to do I guess. :)

Nope. It's an automatic process.

Personal logo Saber6 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian25 Dec 2014 9:08 a.m. PST

Mostly it is due to TMP running on custom code that Bill developed. Only hits the UK in the early morning, schedule is @2400 Pacific time

steamingdave4725 Dec 2014 9:43 a.m. PST

Real pain, like to browse TMP over breakfast and only get about 15 minutes before the dreaded "TMP now closed for maintenance" comes up. Roll on TMP 4.0

MajorB25 Dec 2014 9:57 a.m. PST

Roll on TMP 4.0

Which may, or may not, be any different …

Martin Rapier25 Dec 2014 10:45 a.m. PST

As above, yes it is a complete pita although TMP has always done this the re-indexing period has gradually got longer and longer. It is carefully timed to coincide with pre-work browsing time in the UK.

Some of our old COBOL systems used to have to be shut down for re-indexing back in the 90s.

vikingtim25 Dec 2014 12:50 p.m. PST

Is there a timeline for TMP 4.0? I ask out of ignorance.

I would have thought that lots of custom-code wouldn't be needed for this site, but I don't know all of the back-end requirements.

Several hours every day re-indexing a site of this modest (albeit valuable) scale seems very strange indeed. I'd be curious to hear what DBMS is being used…

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian25 Dec 2014 3:38 p.m. PST

Mostly it is due to TMP running on custom code that Bill developed.

Mostly it is due to the database technology that we use. TMP 4.0 will move to a new database system, so maintenance time should be zero.

I would have thought that lots of custom-code wouldn't be needed for this site, but I don't know all of the back-end requirements.

Remember, this site was built before there were today's website systems. Essentially, TMP is its own content management system.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP26 Dec 2014 6:13 a.m. PST

Remember, this site was built before there were today's website systems. Essentially, TMP is its own content management system.

Mostly it is due to TMP running on custom code that Bill developed.

Without seeing the code and going off other comments (like the expanding maintenance time), I'm guessing it is mostly due to the amount of data in the system growing without end. Hopefully, the algorithm is a polynomial time one (which is about your best option).

Linear growth kind of means the amount of data in your system (number of posts, members, advertisers, etc.) is roughly the "speed" of your reindexing; the more you have, the longer it takes. Polynomial growth means the amount of data is like your "acceleration"; the more you have, the more each additional element adds. Hopefully we're not geometric or exponential (And don't get me started on people saying "exponential growth" when the thing is actually "geometric growth".).

One big challenge, is that (I believe) TMP keeps stuff from time immemorial. Most current social media systems trash old stuff, for efficiency but also because LOLcats from three years ago aren't relevant and will probably be reposted anyway.

I would guess that we would rather keep old stuff for reference sake. On the flip side, there is probably a lot of old stuff (ephemeral and/or non wargaming stuff) we could prune without harm, too.

One of the challenges of pruning is you might prune something from three years ago that someone linked to two years ago. Now that linked thing is gone.

One alternative to going to a more current (I refuse to call them "modern" because of a number of reasons, not the least of which is I am a grumpy old man), might be a purge. A reasonable purge might be things older than (arbitrarily) five years that (1) aren't linked enough (arbitrary standard), and (2) don't hit high enough (arbitrary standard) in the top 95% (arbitrary standard) of content searches.

Of course, the arbitrary parameters could (and should) be debated. They can also be easily "tested" by scanning the db for the number/type of records involved. And there should be an elegant solution added for a broken internal link. Something nice with bricoles and lace, I would think.

[Along those lines, ganking the several "Radio Days" threads out there might just give a nice performance boost all by itself.]

Of course, this doesn't solve the polynomial time problem (which isn't really solvable), but if it reduces the maintenance time and puts off the critical point for a hundred years, it might suffice.

-----

On another point, Bill could check the usage of the system by time zone and shift the maintenance to a different window to deal with the midnight US west coast/8am UK issue. Of course, this still screws someone, but isn't democracy all about screwing the few for the convenience of the many?

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TMP 4.0 will move to a new database system, so maintenance time should be zero.

I'm guessing this means in-line maintenance, which wouldn't be zero. That means that instead of doing a big block of maintenance all at once, the system does a little bit of maintenance each post. Kind of like the difference between a bachelor washing one dish, fork and pot per mean or a family storing dishes up in the dishwasher for a big run.

Of course, that wouldn't mean zero maintenance. From a few SWAGS and some envelope calculations (based on estimates of current workload), it would mean something like between .1 and .2 seconds per post. Non-zero, but unnoticeable for the current application.

But it would also grow at (at least) the polynomial rate, unless the store-bought CMS also came with some inherent purging system. Like above, this shift might also put off the critical point where performance becomes a problem for a century, in which case, so what?

So, Great and Powerful Editor (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain), are we getting purges with our upgrade?

[My meds are starting to wear off, so I will take my response offline.]

fred218427 Dec 2014 1:06 a.m. PST

Ooh I best finish what im doing…. Maintenance work expected.. Thats unusual

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