"The Trojan War - Just a Myth?" Topic

In a recent issue of Slingshot magazine, gamers had a sharp exchange over whether the Trojan War can be considered an historical event, or is merely mythological.

The Trojan War is not a factual event.

One cannot take seriously the idea that the entire corpus of Greek Trojan War literature from the Epic Cycle onwards is pure fabrication.

On a scale of 0 (purely myth) to 10 (factual), how would you rate the Trojan War?

A large, organized raid by Achean/ Sea Peoples on Asia Minor, FACT

A 10 year long war over a woman, Mostly Fiction.

Archaeologists have found fairly conclusively the ruins of a city in the right spot that was definitely destroyed by fire, ie besieged.

10 as far as there was an event where Troy was besieged and destroyed with dramatic impact on the Aegean world.

5 as far as the Iliad is concerned.

10, I was a sailor, definitely don't make Poseidon mad.

5 – The story is fiction based upon actual events.

See above.

And I totally agree with sneakgun.

What Pictors said.
The bit where Diomedes goes 2-0-1 against the Gods is purely factual.

Seriously, the likelihood that Homer made it all up, when the story had been around for years, is pretty low.

Ah, I forgot to give a number. I'd say an 8 at least.

I'll give that a 9.9 Bill.

There was a TV show on British TV some time back about the facts and myths of the Trojan wars. There is a site in Turkey which fits the location thought to be where the Troy of The Iliad was based, which has been excavated by archaeologists, and found to contain nine cities all built on top of each other. It is thought that one of either cities six or seven is the Troy that was fought over and destroyed during the Trojan War, or actually wars as most scholars now accept.

There is no proof for characters such as Helen, Ajax, etc. they were created by Homer when he wrote his poem a few hundred years after the siege.

One of the interesting things is that Homer gives nearly all the Trojans Greek names: the chief exception being Paris.

Archaeologically speaking, Troy is an Asian city, with some cultural links to Mycenaean Greece. Does this speak of a native population with a Greek (-ish) ruling class?

There's lots of echoes in Homer. Too many to ignore.

There was a TV show…

And like the internet, if it is on TV its GOT to be true!

8/9 of 10.

Some facts become mythological. Like Leonidas and the 300.

Never understood why a fire means a city was destroyed in a war. I think it more likely that some ones cow kicked a lamp over and burnt the town to the ground then a siege.

Anyone remember a Mexican archeologist from the seventies who claimed Schliemann was wrong and the actual site of Troy was west not east, in and around a small city in Croatia,called Gabela?
Well,it could be that Homer himself is a "myth"; we do not know for sure if the real person ,the poet existed and when.
My guess would that Homer did exist,and so did Shakespeare.
Troyan war,seems plausible.Most likely,the city was much smaller than imagined,the forces involved much smaller.Everything on a much smaller scale than the poet would like us to believe.
So,I say 8.

Agree with Doug – no definitive proof to say that the levels that correspond with Illiad Troy were destroyed by a besieging army. Still, Ochoin is probably right – too many echoes to ignore. I'd still bet on intentional destruction. Especially with what soon after befell the Aegean area.

It has to be a 10 I saw the Horrorwood movie with famous film stars and all, so it is 100% fact as are all mythological stories rendered like tallow from the raw carcasses of Greek myth into a shallow derivative for shallow consumption by the big movie industry.
Cheers and who said 'Hercules' … Was not true either :) not Blockbuster Ben :X

No tberry, not all TV is truthful.

However when a respected historian such as Bettany Hughes is presenting the evidence, it can't be dismissed so lightly.

8 had to have some truth within the legend

Homer wrote it, so it must be true.

There was a movie starring some famous guys, so it must be true.

I use the "legend vs. historical evidence" of the Trojan War as a critical thinking excercise for my girls, so it must be true.

The BBC show was "In Search of the Trojan War." There is an accompanying book of the same name (by Michael Wood).

I think the fact that Brad Pitt ruptured his achilles while playing the part of Achilles is proof positive the gods exist and have a sense of humor.

Also, Xena was there.

8 There was some sort of war in northwest Asia Minor, I think Homer (or the Homeridae) got some of the details right, but there is a good deal there that is fiction: folk tales incorporated along the way or perhaps interesting historical events from other eras and places.

Turning to the issue of Helen. Did the Hellenes sail to Troy because she was this super hot, mega-babe? You know, the sort who would be a beauty queen, or super model, or movie star, or marry the President of France nowadays. No. But if you consider that she was wealthy and an heiress, you might be on to something.

Grelber

In the word of our pals from Mythbusters:

Even the Helen-thing isn't necessarily ridiculous in the terms Grelber sets out.

And we get echoes not only from Homer & archaeology but also from Hittite documents.

I think that there was a major war. Crete fell along with the Hittites and nearly the Egyptians at the same time or over a period. Probably caused be population movement south maybe for food.

I think that there was a major war. Crete fell along with the Hittites and nearly the Egyptians at the same time or over a period. Probably caused be population movement south maybe for food.

I have no problem with the idea that Troy existed and was destroyed in some manner. From what I understand, the totality of the destruction tends to make me think it is more than just a fire (or series of fires) gone wrong, and one logical option is therefore destruction by some enemy.

I don't know that we can take it any further than that. The Illiad is a romance that again, may or may not be based on historical fact. Sort of like Mallory and the Arthur cycle I guess?

The tv show on it (that I remember) was presented by a solid Historian, Michael Woods.

One of the main things in the Iliad and its favour, was that in the poem there is a list of cities that sent forces, all of which have now been found to exist (many were lost until they were tracked down by historians/archeologists).

I believe it covers a real event. 10

I have also seen several TV programs on the matter including the Michael Woods and Bettany Hughes programs, I believe there is some evidence to a conflict around Troy. Also mentioned in one program was a translation of a Hittite tablet of sending forces to the area to help a city in the area that was under attack.
So a historical event probable, an extended raid likely, over a woman doubtful unless she was powerful or as Grelber mentioned a heiress.
So all in all a strong 9.5.

The Troy site is the master work and most celebrated achievement of the SfPTOToOT (Society for Putting Things On Top of Other Things).

Heinrich Schleimann was reported to have located what was left of Troy. Helen,real or not,was,according to the story, a Spartan,a looker but also quite tough. Overall ,I'd give it a 7.5.

42.

Homer was the ancient world's version of Bernard Cornwell.

Did the Trojan Was happen? Possibly. Was it as exciting as Homer (et.al.) made it? Probably not.

Sean Bean should have played Achilles, not Odysseus, in the recent Hollywood version. He:
1) Gets the girl
2) Has a kick-ass sidekick
3) Does all sorts of improbable deeds
4) Bad attitude towards the higher-ups
5) Betrays Agamemnon (by sulking in his tent)
6) Dies at the end (one of Sean's distinguishing characteristics in movies, along with betrayal)

I read a history of the war in which the author pointed out that the Greeks frequently used the term "10 years" to just mean a long time. So the author felt the war was probably 1 or 2 seasons long, definitely not a 10 year siege.

So 10.

But I'm no Greek scholar.

Something definitely happened, probably a series of raids and pillaging expeditions involving not only Troy. Homer, or whoever, then embellished it all and turns fact into legend.
Bit like the way Peter Jackson embellishes Tolkien( other than none of that is real).

6

Troy was a disaster.

The movie, I mean.

As for the city, the war, the participants, the Iliad, and Homer, in that order, 10, 8, 4 (though possibly real people, some are clearly grafted in to please descendants), 2 (as a factual account), 6 (probably a real person, probably the greatest contributor to the poem's "guts" and style, but probably not the sole author or originator, or even the creator of its final state known to us).

Oh, and I forgot Xena. She's at least a 9.

@cuchulainn

my recollection is seeing the show with bettany hughes. brunette, good looking if i'm thinking of the right show.

it would be best for the historical record if she took me to greece and personally confirmed her theory. we could talk it over in detail while having breakfast in bed.

bettany was at least an 8…

10

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I like pi (pie, geddit?)

There is nothing inherently improbable about woman stealing becoming a catalyst for war. The status of kings was an important commodity and having your wife flit with another royal seriously impaired it.

10.

There was a serious of raids and battles so a 10.

Homer's writings are all fiction set during the war so a 0.

From the Ancient History Encyclopedia:

There has been much scholarly debate as to whether the mythical Troy actually existed and if so, whether the archaeological site discovered in Anatolia which revealed a city which had prospered over thousands of years of habitation was actually the same city; however, it is now almost universally accepted that the archaeological excavations have revealed the city of Homer's Iliad.

Of the several cities built on top of each other, Troy VI (c. 1750-1300 BCE) is the most likely candidate for the besieged city of Homer's Trojan War. Impressive fortification walls with several towers certainly fit the Homeric description of ‘strong-built Troy'. The lower town covers an impressive 270,000 m² protected by an encircling rock-cut ditch and suggests a grand city like the Troy of tradition.

Troy VI was partially destroyed but the exact cause is not known beyond some evidence of fire. Intriguingly, bronze arrow heads, spear tips, and sling shots have been found at the site and even some embedded in the fortification walls, suggesting some sort of conflict. The dates of these (c. 1250 BCE) and the site destruction correlate with Herodotus' dates for the Trojan War.

Conflicts over the centuries between the Mycenaean and Hittite civilizations are more than probable, colonial expansion and control of lucrative trade routes being prime motivators. However, such conflicts are unlikely to have been on the scale of Homer's war, but collectively they may well have been the origin of the epic tale of the Trojan War which has fascinated for centuries.

ancient.eu/Trojan_War

The convergence of evidence – literary and archaeological – points to the events depicted by Homer as being based on fact.

What I mean by convergence of evidence is the fact that Troy VIB was sacked (not just burned, but weapons and remains scattered about), the recurrence of names of persons, peoples, and places in contemporary tablets and reliefs from Hattusas and Egypt, and the fact that the Aegean was a volatile region during the 13th and 12th centuries BC.

Though the above evidence is circumstantial at best, it does lead one to conclude that Homer wasn't entirely making things up.

TV News < Trojan War < 1st Hand Experiences

Overall, I would say the Trojan War itself, taken as a whole is a historical fact. On par with any other history. When we focus on individual facts and events as reported by specific people, it varies. Also, I don't rule out things as not being true just because they didn't happen. Truth is a higher standard than fact.

My take is that the war was quite real but Helen's "rescue" was made up. In real life, wars are fought for economic reasons, but no one wants to die of a spear wound over olive oil futures, so capturing a kidnapped (?) bride sounded a lot better than "we want to control trade routes to the Black Sea". You know, kind of like when modern powers invade oil-rich nations and insist that the war is about freedom or democracy or something that sounds noble.

JC Lira,

You're point is not at all far-fetched. If Illios was allied with the Dardanians and the "Thracians bounded by the Hellespont," then these people would have controlled access to the Black Sea. If there were tensions over that sea route, maybe something like the abduction/elopement of Helen(if more than a legend) would have been the "straw that broke the camel's back" and serve as the casus belli.

Of course there is no real evidence for this 3000 years later, but it is in the realms of possibility.

"5) Betrays Agamemnon (by sulking in his tent)"

Achilles did not betray Agamemnon, or any of the other Greeks. By not giving them his labour in exchange for less than what it was worth Achilles was not entering into a corrupt relationship with them. He was demanding equal pay for what his services were worth. His arete deserved to be rewarded.

Had he continued fighting he would have destroyed the Greeks by giving them more power than they could handle, corrupting them. This would have done neither Achilles nor Agamemnon any good and the Greeks that died were better off dead than corrupt.

It was Agamemnon that betrayed Achilles and not only Achilles but the right and natural order of things.

Troy-vey! ;^)

If I were Achilles I would have told Agamemnon to off too. He was totally out of line.

For 20 bonus points, what was the name of the girl the 2 were having their disagreement about? It's against the rules to look her up.
Yet everyone knows who Helen was.

History is strange. We CAN explain it all in terms of economics and trade and raids but my money is on 90% of it bring true. Humans are crazy enough.

Briseis?

Trick question.

The girl does not have a name but is called (in Greek) "daughter of Briseus " : "Briseis".

There is nothing inherently improbable about woman stealing becoming a catalyst for war. The status of kings was an important commodity and having your wife flit with another royal seriously impaired it.

Given how much my ancestors stirred up with their 'mere' cattle raids, I have no doubt that a war happened. (My ancestors are the fun types who gave the word "blackmail" to the English language)

Was there a city called Troy that was sacked and burned? 10/10.
Was the story as interesting as Homer made it sound? no.

And I had never heard that the Greeks used the phrase "ten years" to mean "a long time". That actually makes the Trojan war even more likely to be real in my mind.

I'm reading a Neil Oliver book where he speculates (nothing more) that trolls are a memory of Neanderthals & 'Eenie, meenie, miney, moe' is a vestigial pre-Celtic type of counting.

Folk memories can be quite powerful things but, always, proof is needed for something to become history.