"US Senate approves lethal weapons for Ukraine" Topic

US has passed the Ukraine Freedom Support Act of 2014 in which it authorises transfers of weaponry to Ukraine.

Of course it has to get through lower house and president before it becomes law.

Emphasis is mine.

congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/2828/text

(a) In General.--The President is authorized to provide defense
articles, defense services, and training to the Government of Ukraine
for the purpose of countering offensive weapons and reestablishing the
sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, including anti-tank
and anti-armor weapons, crew weapons and ammunition, counter-artillery
radars to identify and target artillery batteries, fire control, range
finder, and optical and guidance and control equipment, tactical troop-
operated surveillance drones, and secure command and communications
equipment, pursuant to the provisions of the Arms Export Control Act
(22 U.S.C. 2751 et seq.), the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (22 U.S.C.
2151 et seq.), and other relevant provisions of law.

I'd be giving them a helluva lot more than that – surplus fighter aircraft, tanks, IFVs, EW equipment and artillery.

I'd also make sure some Stingers got "lost in the post" and wound up in Chechnya somehow. Give the Russians something else to think about.

Seems provocative, somehow….

Not as provocative as Russia annexing Crimea and sending troops in.

The US hasn't passed anything.

All that has happened is that the Republican-led US House of Representatives has created a Bill. It still needs the Democrat-led Senate to pass it, then get signed into law by Pres. Obama. Fat chance that'll happen.

Unless that happens, this Bill is only good for toilet paper.

It was already passed in Senate and now goes to House of Representative. Both houses can introduce legislation in US.

Anyhow I hope Obama grows a set and passes it. As stated I'd be ramping it up to include surplus heavy equipment.

Sorry, defensive weaponry to a country under attack by the Russian bear, and her supporters is not "provocative".

Wise perhaps, but definitely not provocative. Russia shouldn't mind, since they'll be unaffected by the move, UNLESS they PLAN to invade, which of course, I believe they do.

More sanctions coming for Russia soon too, from the US and EU as well.

It was already passed in Senate and now goes to House of Representative. Both houses can introduce legislation in US.

Holy cow, I never would have expected the Senate to pass a bill like that first!

The real question is whether there will be enough votes to override a presidential veto. (don't remember if that's a 60% or 2/3 supermajority)

09/16/2014 Introduced in Senate
12/11/2014 Passed/agreed to in Senate: Passed Senate with an amendment by Voice Vote. (Amendment SA 4092 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent).

Seems to be quite an active bill.

counter-artillery radars to identify and target artillery batteries

That could be interesting, if any of those barrages are shown to have come from across the border (although there was a claim from Russia that they were only firing back at any stray Ukrainian shots that crossed the border…?)

I notice that it also includes additinoal sanctions, non-military support and a whole section related to the sourcing and/or supply of energy.

<<I'd also make sure some Stingers got "lost in the post" and wound up in Chechnya somehow. Give the Russians something else to think about.>>

Deadone/Thomas Hobbes/Whatever I suggest you should be careful in what you wish for. Also, it might even lead to an open case for the support of terrorism – and there's no anonymity in internet…

Barin1,

Chechnian Muslim extremists are not terrorists, they are freedom fighters. Just like Tsarnaev brothers in Boston. That's why to help freedom fighters in Chechnia and Ukrainian government to achieve peace we need to send weapons that can shot down airplanes and otherwise prolong the conflict. Many pension plans here depend on that.

More about getting the Russians to start wasting treasure and blood in Caucasus.

Any weakening of Russia is good for the West.

Do you also advocate weak French and British states? If not, why?

All three are nuclear armed, largely-secular Christian states.
All three sit on a land mass with their power bases thousands of kilometers from the continental US.
None has expressed any direct interest in nuking the US (the only existential threat that ANYONE poses to the United States).
Russia also happens to be situated in a great position to help check the power of a rising China. Ooops, missed that opportunity….

So anyways, why treat them differently? Weakening Russia = reducing the power/influence of Russia's central government. Considering said government is a borderline-kleptocracy that happens to sit on a stockpile of 2,000+ nuclear weapons, destabilizing them hardly seems like a sensible move.

America's foreign policy resolves almost entirely around propping up the Petrodollar. Unfortunately our heavy-handedness has also managed to off practically everyone to the point that they can't wait to abandon the US dollar at the soonest possible convenience, achieving the exact opposite of our intentions. If we had spent the Petrodollar's "global economy tax" revenues of the past 25 years on something other than McMansions and the military-industrial complex, we'd be in a much better economic position to survive our eventual loss of reserve status. But I digress…..

Given the current state of the Russian currency, couldn't we just offer to buy Crimea back and have done with it?

Do you also advocate weak French and British states? If not, why?

France and UK are part of West and have been cornerstone of Western democracies defence since late 1800s.

Russia has been a threat to Western democracies since 1918.

In essence the Russians are enemies of the West as are the Chinese and Arabs.

Russia also happens to be situated in a great position to help check the power of a rising China. Ooops, missed that opportunity….

Except Russia and China have been chumming it up since 1990s. And their relationship only gets closer – joint massed military exercises last year and ongoing weapons sales being key components.

Weakening Russia = reducing the power/influence of Russia's central government. Considering said government is a borderline-kleptocracy that happens to sit on a stockpile of 2,000+ nuclear weapons,

During their last economic collapse, they kept money pumping into the nuclear arsenal. It's Russia's last line of defence.

Destroying their ability to expand conventional forces and destabilising their econom immediately strengthens Western interests in the Caucasus etc.

It allows resources to be poured into Asia to counter China.

Supplying the Chechens is a wonderful way of ensuring the West loses a few more people as Chechens are not so much freedom fighters as, these days, part of the whole jihhadi problem.

Supplying the Ukrainians is also probably not a good idea, unless they're running out of ammunition.

Helping to fi their economy, whilst the Russian ones nose-dives into the toilet, would be the wisest course.

Unless Russia gets more directly involved, the Ukrainians aren't going to lose. And Russia will shortly run out of money to support the rebels who will soon become more trouble than they''re worth.

Russia has been a threat to Western democracies since 1918.

The Cold War *was* over. We won. But obviously that's not enough for some people. Why?

Except Russia and China have been chumming it up since 1990s.

The leaders of both countries are hugely pragmatic. Do you think their actions occur entirely in a vacuum? Structural changes in banking this year are a great example.
-The BRICS setting up an alternative to the IMF headquartered in Shanghai. link
-China and Russia stockpiling massive quantities of gold. link
-Russia rolling out an alternative to the SWIFT network. link

Just take a few minutes and ask yourself "What is the US doing, in terms of economic and foreign policy, that is causing other Great Powers to respond this way?"

The United States is essentially an unassailable fortress. MAD protects us from nuclear war. An overland invasion through Canada or Mexico is logistically unsustainable, and the gigantic US Navy keeps any amphibious assault at bay. Those lines of defense, combined with the occasional Marine Corps excursion and some Special Operations ninjas doing their thing, is more than sufficient to secure "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" for every American.

Destroying their ability to expand conventional forces and destabilising their econom immediately strengthens Western interests in the Caucasus etc.

It allows resources to be poured into Asia to counter China./

Petty megalomania fueled by putting the world's most powerful war machine in the hands of control freaks is the Number 1 cause of America's problems in our time.

Supplying the Ukrainians is also probably not a good idea, unless they're running out of ammunition

Well, the soldiers were only issued with 10 rounds each (seriously)

BS claim by some (Ukrainian government?). Even if true (no way) the rest are stolen by new leadership and sold to a third party.

Which bit? About the rounds? No, we have that first hand from friends of my wife who are actually out there on the front line. We personally know of a local priest who took a truck of ammo out to them, purchased from a local shop by citizens.

Did you not see the excited tank commander when this all started? First time they had been given fuel for the tanks. Up until then they had just walked around on pretend exercises.

Where did he purchase that ammo? In a local shop? Where did local shop got the ammo from? How come he was able to purchase ammo and Ukrainian government was not?

And BTW, walking (actually parade ground marching) around tanks for pretend exercises is long time problem with Soviet style armed forces. ANYONE who served in Soviet, Russian or Ukrainian army will tell you stories.

Because the government doesn't have the money to buy it. He did not purchase it himself, the town did. He just delivered it.

My wife owns several weapons (still in store out there). Things are… available… if you have the money and/or know the right people.

IGWARG1 and Co, are you 'right' thinking lot serious? No wonder the rest of the world tend to find you lot ever so obnoxious. This is not a good way at making friends or allies, unless your leasing them until your short attention leadership looks to another.
Be a bit more responsible. Remember the CIA armed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan with stingers and such, this sure did not work out well for the US 'led' expedition either did it?
I tend to believe it is about pterodollars and war fuelled industrial jobs like some above do.
How else can a country that I live in not else be in the position it is in, when it has done nothing else but be part of a group that does not tow the almighty $ derived line (it is a BRICS member) and has paid through downgrades by some arbitrary group (Moodeys) as a high risk investment,
yet Detroit which was totally broke and broken gets to be rehabilitated and cool for investors to drop their dime.
So on the one you arm your potential enemies (and I'm sure the Ukrainians are no cosy buds in this case either and you pss off others because they happen to not see it as you do) what gives with that attitude?
As said above it does sound like the Romans at the baths with no idea of the Barbarians at the gate, by the time you learnt of the danger and let lose the 'Legions' they will be amongst you, what are you going to do then? Nuc your selves?

Not cheered by short sighted sabre rattling here :(

The Cold War *was* over. We won. But obviously that's not enough for some people. Why?

Cause the Russians never accepted their "defeat." They started ramping up tensions since Putin got in power.

The leaders of both countries are hugely pragmatic. Do you think their actions occur entirely in a vacuum? Structural changes in banking this year are a great example.
-The BRICS setting up an alternative to the IMF headquartered in Shanghai. link
-China and Russia stockpiling massive quantities of gold. link
-Russia rolling out an alternative to the SWIFT network. link

Just take a few minutes and ask yourself "What is the US doing, in terms of economic and foreign policy, that is causing other Great Powers to respond this way?"

It's great power politics.

Everyone wants to be top dog. The West squandered an opportunity in 1991 and has been letting it's companies essentially commit industrial treason by moving production offshore since the 1960s.

It doesn't matter what the US does. China, Russia and everyone else want to control global affairs as much as US does.

The United States is essentially an unassailable fortress. MAD protects us from nuclear war. An overland invasion through Canada or Mexico is logistically unsustainable, and the gigantic US Navy keeps any amphibious assault at bay. Those lines of defense, combined with the occasional Marine Corps excursion and some Special Operations ninjas doing their thing, is more than sufficient to secure "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" for every American.

USA is the cornerstone of Western democracy, Western security and arguably the guarantor of the continuing existence of our Western way of life and civilisation.

Russia, China and Arabs are enemies of that way of life. It's a shame the Europeans haven't awoken to that fact.

link

"The bill would also give Mr Obama the authority to provide lethal and non-lethal military assistance to Ukraine, but not require him to do so."

Bit sounds like further sanctions, targeting their defence industries, will not be added

They started ramping up tensions since Putin got in power.

Bush and Putin did a joint declaration on US relations in May 2002: link

Both countries were supportive of each other in the aftermath of major terror attacks (9/11 for us and Beslan for the Russians). Sunni Muslim terrorists are a common enemy.

Roughly around the same time the US pulled out of the ABM treaty to move forward with plans for a missile defense system. The "defense against a rouge state nuke" is just a convenient excuse to test and deploy systems meant to negate Russia's nuclear arsenal and disturb the balance established by MAD.

Things really started to go downhill when we decided to put ABM sites in Poland, probably one of the worst policy mistakes of the 21st century IMO.

The West squandered an opportunity in 1991 and has been letting it's companies essentially commit industrial treason by moving production offshore since the 1960s.

Again the result of the US playing "World Police". We spend a disproportionate amount of GDP on making the oceans safe for everyone else's business. China, Japan, and South Korea wouldn't be able to sell us cheap goods if rampant piracy kept the insurance rates on trans-Pacific shipping astronomical. Or they'd have to spend their own GDP to police the oceans themselves. Pax Americana serves to exacerbate the conditions that have led to the hollowing out of our own industrial base.

USA is the cornerstone of Western democracy, Western security and arguably the guarantor of the continuing existence of our Western way of life and civilisation.

Ah yes, "American Exceptionalism". If that's the case, Western democracy is pretty screwed. Said cornerstone:
-imprisons more of its population (as a percentage and I think even in absolute terms) than the Communist Party of China
-has spied on its own citizens to an extent that would make Stalin blush
-just this century, has conducted offensive military campaigns against 7 Muslim countries with extensive civilian collateral damage link

By these standards, Putin looks like a saint! I mean, he's only invaded *2* countries (3 if you count Chechnya). What a slacker.

Have you spent any significant time out here in Asia? You can play/watch football (real American football, not that BS "soccer"), drive V8-engined muscle cars, and eat apple pie. They might cost you a little more (especially sports cars), but there are other advantages too. For example, I have a 0.00% chance of being murdered by public servants (law enforcement) just for Driving While Black….at night…in a sports car. Whereas a traffic stop in the States is probably the single most dangerous activity that I, as a law-abiding young-ish black male, could possibly engage in Stateside.

Russia, China and Arabs are enemies of that way of life.

Russia doesn't give two fecal units about America's "way of life". The argument could be made that the Chinese are even more ruthlessly capitalist than Americans. Their one-party system is more consistently competent in the long-run than America's schizophrenic Democrat-Republican see-saw. Sometimes I'm a bit worried by the Chinese hints of racism/xenophobia, but these guys have been writing philosophical treatises on good governance for 2000 years. America's leaders should use Mencius and Lao Zi as a guide instead of Orwell's 1984.

I will say that I'd *LOVE* to see Saudi Arabia and their particular brand of Wahhabism/Sunni Islam stamped into the dust. I'm not a fan of any of the Abrahamic religions, but Wahhabism in particular is a poisonous ideology as bad (if not worse) than National Socialism and Aryan Supremacy. Russia, China, India, the US, all have Muslim terror problems. But the most significant exporter of violent religious extremism is propped up by which Great Power? Oh right……the United States.

Bangorstu
Given the current state of the Russian currency,

In a rare instance, I agree with you my friend … With the falling Ruble, Western sanctions, lowering of oil prices, etc. … We may just want to watch this "classic example of hubris" take its inevitable course.

USA is the cornerstone of Western democracy, Western security and arguably the guarantor of the continuing existence of our Western way of life and civilisation.

Yes, I totally agree with Deadone on this …

Ah yes, "American Exceptionalism". If that's the case, Western democracy is pretty screwed. Said cornerstone:
-imprisons more of its population (as a percentage and I think even in absolute terms) than the Communist Party of China
-has spied on its own citizens to an extent that would make Stalin blush
-just this century, has conducted offensive military campaigns against 7 Muslim countries with extensive civilian collateral damage link

By these standards, Putin looks like a saint! I mean, he's only invaded *2* countries (3 if you count Chechnya). What a slacker.

Have you spent any significant time out here in Asia? You can play/watch football (real American football, not that BS "soccer"), drive V8-engined muscle cars, and eat apple pie. They might cost you a little more (especially sports cars), but there are other advantages too. For example, I have a 0.00% chance of being murdered by public servants (law enforcement) just for Driving While Black….at night…in a sports car. Whereas a traffic stop in the States is probably the single most dangerous activity that I, as a law-abiding young-ish black male, could possibly engage in Stateside.

But I can understand your feelings only as well/as littel as a "white" American can. Whose family came over in the very late 1800s from Southern Italy. However, I did spend 22 months in the ROK, '84-'85 in a US ARMY Mech Infantry unit with 2 tours the DMZ … So yes I did spend a little time in Asia back then … My troops played and watched football, ate apple pie, as well as Kimchi … We didn't drive cars let alone a sports car. Only Jeeps, APCs, Deuce 1/2s, 5 Tons, etc. … We had a pretty good chance of being killed or murdered by the Norks along the DMZ. We didn't have to worry about traffic stops, only stopping to check for roadside mines or booby-traps as we used to call them back then. So you all can see the two different takes from two different law abiding Americans from two different backgrounds … An interesting "duality of preceptions" from citizens of the USA, yes ? And many of my troops, friends, comrades in the ARMY '79-'80 were from all sections of American Society, but the only color we saw was camo green … Regardless, IMO the biggest threat to the world today is from rise radical islamists/jihadist/terrorists. From mainly the ME, Africa and SWA … The Russians, Chinese and even the Norks can be considered threats. But as yet none have not crashed jets into US buildings or attack Western assets, etc., worldwide … However, the Norks have been somewhat annoying as of late. But I didn't want to see that movie any way …

Sunni Muslim terrorists are a common enemy.

Agreed …

Wahhabism/Sunni Islam stamped into the dust. I'm not a fan of any of the Abrahamic religions, but Wahhabism in particular is a poisonous ideology as bad (if not worse) than National Socialism and Aryan Supremacy. Russia, China, India, the US, all have Muslim terror problems.

Again, I agree …

link

This could help explain why Ukraine needs assistance. While the Russian state may not be directly involved (I only say may, I know what I think) they could easily have stopped this sort of thing if they wanted to.

There are a number of typos in my post above. It was very early in the AM when I typed that … The one I want to correct, I was on active duty from '79-'90 … OOPs !

"Because if the war for Donetsk is lost, it will immediately cross the border and begin in Russia. Rostov, Moscow, Vladivostok will be in flames."

To many outsiders this looks like paranoia…

One wonders why an outsider may think that… :-)

Stability from conflict in Ukraine is hardly likely to spill over to flames from Moscow to Vladivostok… unless the reality is that the country is already on such a flammable knife edge from within that it is on the verge of erupting internally?

the reality is that [Russia] is already on such a flammable knife edge from within that it is on the verge of erupting internally

*DINGDINGDINGDING*!!!

We have a winnah!

Look. The US and Europe have had a terrible last 6 years, economically speaking. Russia has been in a similar economic situation since 1990 (and the Soviet Union was in a similar state since about 1980).

Large number of unemployed males, all of whom have military training due to national conscription is a recipe for trouble. You'd just need one good rabble-rouser to light the match.

Noble, regardless of your claims, Russia and China are our enemies.

And by "our" I don't just mean USA. I am referring to Western Europe and the Western aligned states in Asia and Oceania.

The Russians are actively expanding again and the Chinese are working hard to destabilise the entire Asia Pacific with aggressive pushing of claims over all those little islands in the various seas surrounding China.

Both countries are expanding or rebuilding military capabilities whose main purpose is anti-Western (China does not need stealth fighters or carriers to protect its territorial integrity).

This is causing increased militarism in neighbouring countries including Japan.

This is nothing new. The world has always been a big power playground.

Russia has been in a similar economic situation since 1990 (and the Soviet Union was in a similar state since about 1980)

Yes, there was a bit of sarcasm in my question :-)

Large number of unemployed males

According to link
"…roughly half the Russian population lives off the state budget – either as state employees, pensioners or as benefit claimants…"

This is a state that has put everything on the price of oil, against advice.

"Putin ignored advice from Yegor Gaidar, the former Russian prime minister who took up his post immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1992. He wrote a book-length appeal to Putin, The Collapse Of An Empire, arguing that the Soviet Union had financially imploded due to the sudden collapse in the oil price – thanks to American-Saudi agreements to increase production – and that the new Russia was repeating its mistakes.

…Putin ignored the government's Strategy 2020

…He ignored the pleas of Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, then serving as titular president, who in 2009 rhetorically asked the Russian public: "Can an economy based on raw materials and endemic corruption take us into the future?

…Even the powerful Kremlin aide, Vladislav Surkov, currently leading on operations in Ukraine, warned in 2010: "We are not like Kuwait… We are unable to be a small prosperous emirate. We are a great big country that oil will be unable to feed. We must learn to make money from our brains."

And this has been a very expensive year – capital outlay at a time when your income stream has taken a severe knock. I was talking to Galina about it. She said "ah, the military lot have had a bit of a play, but it's the economists who have put their brains together and got the real answer…"

"Russia's 2015 spending plans had assumed that oil would remain over $100 USD… Sochi Olympics (price tag $50 USDbn)… the annexation of Crimea ($75bn, according to one estimate)"

That's not small change, and with no land bridge they are going to end up forking out at least that again to build suitable services, or need to pay Ukraine to supply Crimea with services… that's humble pie, and Ukraine may just refuse to supply it anyway.

Then they have to fund the 2018 World Cup…

So did the man in charge just not listen to advice, and is now struggling to keep it together? A gamble based on the price of oil at that time, but not considering (as we so ofrten hear) "…the value of your investments may go down as well as up…"?

The Russians are actively expanding again

Are they? Their population is down by 5%, their economy is on the verge of financial ruin, they are trying to throw their military arms about, but that costs money too, and the people are starting to ask questions that the Kremlin really doesn't want to answer.

And to raise the pressure it seems the EU will now introduce more sanctions "while Russia remains in Ukraine":

PDF link

"This is to reinforce the EU's policy of not recognising their illegal annexation by Russia…"

"…roughly half the Russian population lives off the state budget – either as state employees, pensioners or as benefit claimants…"

Huge chunks of the West is the same, including the chunk of Australia I live in.

Even people employed in "private" sector in things like health, landscaping, infrastructure are funded by government grants or government contracts.

Joys of de-industrialisation and creation of economies based on property booms and looking after people who can't look after themselves (pensioners, various disabled, immigrant etc etc).

"…roughly half the Russian population lives off the state budget – either as state employees, pensioners or as benefit claimants…"

Huge chunks of the West is the same, including the chunk of Australia I live in.

Even people employed in "private" sector in things like health, landscaping, infrastructure are funded by government grants or government contracts.

Joys of de-industrialisation and creation of economies based on property booms and looking after people who can't look after themselves (pensioners, various disabled, immigrant etc etc).