"MOUT - What should be the result" Topic

The following was a situation that arose as part of our ongoing campaign (using MG of course). We did resolve it using the rules but afterwards we came up with further solutions. The question is what would you expect the real world solutions be.

In the centre of the village (not accessible to the Marders (infantry carriers)) there is an ongoing battle for the next house. The Russians call down HE on their positions to help slow down the German advance. Both sides of the road the protagonists (who have radio communications with their own side only) evade down into the cellar for protection. The Germans organise their own side to extend the Russian barrage by their own Grenade launchers taking the Russians anticipated of knowing when it ceases from them. This allows the Germans to sprint across the street where there barrage stops and catch the Russians in their cellar. However the Russians hear them coming not being affected by the bombardment so a Mexican standoff results. It would be foolhardy for either side to do much as the odds are with the attacker (Opinion required, this is our opinion). The Russians now call another bombardment which suppresses the Germans who do not have the benefit of the cellar. Then with a small advantage the Russians assault out of the cellar. (opinion on practicality required) It is assumed that the floor above the cellar can be penetrated by small arms) so suppressive fire round the cellar exits would be possible. making egress not suicide The Germans retreat as the odds are against them.

We postulated that a German option was to simply enter the building and set light to it. Not too difficult a task then retreat. This would (I say with some confidence) force the Russians to leave, if they remain they will die from lack of oxygen even though the heat might not get them.

Please do not use rules as a guide as this is about what answer the rules should give not what they do give.

How should the Germans have behaved and what is the range of likelihoods of the various outcomes?

It seems the option they chose was a reasonable one. The Germans are under artillery fire and facing an infantry assault with superior numbers (as far as I can tell).

Falling back to a defensible position and reconsidering seems like a reasonable choice.

If the unit had access to incendiaries, attempts to set the building on fire at range is worthwhile but might be a long shot. Getting an entire building to burn is trickier than it might seem (or so I've been told).

Concur with tricky to burn down the whole building (assume it was larger than a single dwelling house?). Other thing to keep in mind is that each side probably wants the house to be in reasonable shape for cover, shelter, etc. when the fighting is done.

Could you gain access to the cellar entry and was it open? If so why not toss down some grenades? That would solve the problem or at least make it easier to storm the cellar and clear it of Russians.

As above, clearing the cellar with grenades is the way to go. The drill for house clearance used to be from the top down.

If the Russians haven't pinned the attackers out in the street (which is what building defenders are supposed to do), then they die like rats in their cellar. 80% chance the Russians are annihilated if the Germans actually make it into the building. Anything but a 1.

As for assaulting out of a cellar? Well that is going to be deeply dodgy at the best of times given the proximity of the enemy and limited egress points, the Germans being suppressed helps. 40% chance of success, at best. Roll a 5+

I don't think that is workable for the Russians in the cellar. They aren't coming out while the bombardment and suppressive fire is hitting the ground floor.

It's really difficult to say, not knowing the actual terrain.
To successfully attack in forested areas, you need a 3:1 ratio, in MOUT this is turned to a 10:1 advantage as a rule. If the russians are only occupying the basement however I see nothing stopping the germans from advancing and simply using grenades or claymores on sticks causing horrendous losses on the bunched up russians. Not knowing how much explosives a german or Russian platoon has access to I'm not going to give advice on that. It could however be used to create new openings for advance.
Assaulting up a known stair seems suicidal to me, a single MG3 could get rid of heaps of people in this position. Firing "suppressive" fire through the roof of the cellar would probably not be able to suppress enemies not directly in contact with the floor. I don't see how the germans are at a disadvantage in the situation? The russians are more or less pinned to their cellar, unless the cellar is very large or has ratholes allowing the russians to escape and regroup.

Should be lots of dead Russians, courtesy of grenades bouncing down the stairs.

What are the numbers involved? I got the impression reading it that the Germans were badly outnumbered, but re-reading it, I'm not so sure anymore.

All verty interesting assumptions. The cellar in UK type houses is as big as the floor plan of the house. The houss is 4 rooms an a couple of corridors. I assume the celler stairs has a door so neither side can see each other and each would be coveing the door.

Normaly who ever opens the door would be seen and shot at so neither side seems to gain. I guess a first grenade could blow the door from a distance and the second rolled down. That makes sence on what has been said above. Then Russians are dead men.
Not thought that one through had I?

With respect to the house it was not required so burning down a small house may be practical.

Thanks for the help.

In the US modern building codes require every room in a basement to have an exterior exit – usually a window well. Not sure about EU.

As to grenades, it would depend on what is in the cellar with respect to furnishings (if any), what might be stored there, and layout if there are partitions.

From the stated scenario one presumes that this is not a prepared position, which would make a significant change.

Also, depends upon the roof of the cellar.

I doubt artillery shells would stop from penetrating below, if the cellar has a wooden roof, so they'd be killed/wounded down there by their own barrage.

Perhaps, if under a thick cement roof, things might be a bit different, depending upon the size of the shells.

If it were me, I'd retreat further into the town, before calling in the barrage on my previous position, not wanting to be trapped in a cellar from which there are only one, or two exits, for all the reasons stated above, by me, and others. That is especially true, since if a wall, or floor falls on the door, you could be entombed, permanently.

The house I lived in Southern Germany, the cellar was divided into 6 rooms with concrete walls (one room per apartment)and a wooden gate to each room, with only one entrance from the entry hall to the cellar area. Each room in the cellar had a perforated steel window.
The building I lived in Berlin again only had one entrance to the cellar from the hallway, each apartment had a area divided by wooden slats and a gate in the cellar. This cellar had no windows as far as I can remember.

Now I fell better. In the UK most cellras have only 1 and possibly 2 entrances 1 pesonell and one for coal, ew houses have no celler, typically where previously most had. In Normandy in WWII most Frentchouses had cellers.

A fire takes a LONG time to get going – the Russian bombardment would still have caught the Germans. Russians seemed to have a lot of arty for a small group stuck in a basement too. Using a radio from a basement is also a bit of a pain.

Once those Russians ran to the cellar they should have sealed their fate – they limited their situational awareness to practically nothing and have NO control over the nearby battle area.

Yes, the situation is analogous to an entrenched position being overrun while defenders are still in their bunkers. If the cellar has been prepared for defence with concrete and steel reinforcement, it is a whole different kettle of fish.

The cellar in my house has three rooms including a steel bomb shelter, two exits and ground level air grilles on three sides easily big enough to fire an LMG through safely. I wouldn't want to be down there with a house full of enemy infantry up top though.

There has been quite a bit of ops research on mout, generally the attacker has the advantage at a tactical level and the optimum defence is entered around outpost positions and rapid counterattack as the terrain is so fragmented. +3 for being in a building doesn't appear to apply irl, but -2 for crossing a street does. As mentioned above, operationally, odds of 10:1 are required for a successful assault, clearance and retention of significant chunks of real estate.

The thing is, if the cellar *isn't* hardened, then the Russians would have been pretty unlikely to call in arty on their own position. If it was other Russians who called the strike in, then those in the cellar are doing nothing but holding tight to see if the Germans are forced out of the house. If they aren't, then the Russians surrender or get killed.

So this was a great help. So the next question is a bit harder. What type of cellar should the default be? MG default is a house with celler. This was done as the easiest way to discurage the foolhardy from trying to unrealisticaly keep ploughing through houses with tanks; 6 years on it looks like our general definition was not peurfect. As a baseline for begginers and as a general default what would you suggest for the celler definition? Note the idea of having cellars as a default has to remain, so what type of celler?

Thanks in advance Brian and Paul

I'd honestly assume that the default would be un-reinforced cellars in most of Europe (but please remember that I am an American).

Sure, there might be a bomb shelter in there, but bomb shelters suck for trying to defend from.

Not really sure if they build their foundations out of concrete, or not, WITH a concrete roof.

I suspect that is what you really need to know.

I must honestly say I have no idea what "MG" is, and I don't know the alternatives. I would also like to know the area of operations, period and anything else. Europe is a continent rather than a country after all..

But yes, I would have to agree that basically any cellar is unsuitable for defence. Unless specifically prepared for such. For Sweden the roof of the cellar would probably be made out of concrete, and thus small arms bulletproof. Despite this it would probably -not- be a defensible position, unless the enemy could be kept away from the building and fire could be poured from basement windows. (wich would be more or less protected, if with a limitided field of fire).
"Preparations of minutes give defence for hours, preparations for hours give defence for days" etc, etc. Meaning it is highly unlikely that a pre existing building is prepared. However it could be prepared for defence by blocking stairways, cornering of areas from blasts, preparing loopholes etc.

Krieger,
MG stands for Maneouver Group;-

link

As a serious player you may want to set the battle in a particular geographic location. We, the authors tend to play cold war but as an excercise in the UK and/or on theoretical terrain very similar to the UK. We do this as its much easier to visulise what you see around you and what is on a map and then translate to capure that essesnce on table. To be honest we were not expecting to need this level of detail in a game where the attacker is two companies plus supports. However ther urban area is small but so well defended that this level of detail was forced on us.

Accounts of WWII indicate sheltering in cellars or for the Russians, in the middle floors of houses in Starlingrad made tham all but immune from Artillery in normal quantities. What we MG had missed is the definition for assulting into the cellers in our game and potentially in the rules.

As I type this sitting in my own basement, I have several windows that give some view of the outside. With some prep, I'd have decent combat positions to cover some approaches.

But the roof of the basement is wood, so artillery or even gunfire would punch clean through.

Now I understand your point of view. Sadly I haven't read your rules or even read much about them! (A couple of AAR's would probably do you good.)

I believe the Chechnyans kept away from rooftops and top floors, instead prefering fighting from 2nd or 3rd floor as well as basements. Ground floors were mostly boarded up to prevent Russian assaults. This was to minimize the effect of Russian artillery and Aircraft. I would say that preparations are key for defence in close combat MOUT, otherwise the enemy -has- to be stopped outside of the building. A prepared defence means that staircases are ruined, loopholes created and grenadetraps have been set. Preparations are more or less necessary to be able to fire backblast weapons from inside buildings as well.

This is more or less necessary since a platoons assault in modern times would be supported probably with autocannon equipped IFVs or other heavy weapons simply chewing through the walls of the building, limiting the defenders ability to employ defensive fire.
Best of luck! Hope to see some more info on your game some time!