"Fighting in the Jungle with TSATF" Topic

Hello
last saturday i had, for the first time, a try at a Jungle scenario with TSTAF..thanks to a friend of mine who present a beautiful table with nicely painted units of Moros,Philippinos Constabulary and US Infantry..the scenario depictded an attack on a Cotta in a clear amid a jungle…bitterly contested by mostly melé weaposn armed units of Moros and Juramentados suicidal attacks..the figures used where some TVAG 15mm (very nice and better than the picts )..
Contrary to what we where accostumed to play, Jungle fights present some totally new situations and..doubts and querries about rule interpretations..
main cocern was about visibility connected with fire and charges..the rule book says: 6" visibility inside forest..but, before, the rules allow natives (Moros) to see every imperial (in this case US/Philippinos)presnt on the table…so i'm asking if it's possible , according to this last consideration, that natives could fire or charge an ennemy unit from an unseen position?…and..in the case of US troops firing before receiving a charge would their target being considered under cover (class II) or not?
and very last consideration..could it be appropriate, in game therms, to allow only open order formations in the forest (Jungle)..
thanks in advance for your appreciated point of view on those matters

I think for these types of scenarios that allowing native troops to charge "unseen" troops would give it a better feel. How else to represents boys in the trees making jungle calls to the troops, hidden spies, etc. This sort of "information asymmetry" seems appropriate. Did it get out of hand?

Yes, I would allow the natives cover also, to represent the confusion of firing at the last minute. Then again, did it get out of hand when you allowed it (assuming you did)?

I don't think allowing close order moving through the jungle to be thematic. Making a stand in a clearing in close order, however, sounds pretty good.

hello…thanks Dale Hut…
i dont'nt know if the game "get out of hand"…but certainly the US Command was put in great difficulties..the advancing US Inf/Philippino Scouts column was succesfully hi by fire and nearly defeated in Jungle mélée ..the US player made big errors like advancig alongside path without proper avantgarde and even searching through Jungle without lateral/frontal scouts…at the end he find a minimal degree of safety by ending his units moove with some of his castings facing in every direction to avoid being charged by the rear

but what i had difficulties in understanding was the possibility of not ..to fire , assuming a 6 inch. visibility , the possibility to fire over that range..assuming that a)natives see all the table b) once a native unit had fired at whatever range he should be seen

Have you tried the Sword in Africa (small actions)variant, included in the 20th Anniversary edition of TSATF?

no don't…maybe i'll do in the future….but i really don't like the view of many 8 figs minis all with a leader moving, all over the table, like radio coordinated small groups of locusts toward objectives…i experimented that with the Colonial Scenario Books by M. Fastoso..(very good researched except indeed)..in my opinion 20 man units are essential to TSTAF functioning…

I have Sword In Africa and I have a few suggestions regarding jungle fighting…

1. The traditional 3-1 natives versus European (American) regulars does not fly. In most cases 2-1 works or even 1-1 depending on scenario. The natives are able to close before they are shot to pieces.

2. If there is a 6 inch visibility then terrain is to dense to fire through beyond six inches, don't allow it. If you allow fire beyond six inches go with "blind fire" a house rule I invented you can only hit on a 20 no matter what the weapon is. In addition I keep the results of blind fire secret.

3. Keep the rule about the native player knowing where the European / American player is. This is to represent superior scouting of the natives and elaborate communications (bird whistles, drums etc…)

Lots of good advice already! Here's my two colonial cents…

When a hidden native unit either CHARGES (during movement phase) or FIRES (during fire phase) from its unseen position, it must REVEAL ITSELF to the enemy. I guess that's somewhat obvious in the case of a charging unit but maybe not so in the case of a unit firing from a hidden position. If your hidden troops were equipped with smokeless powder it might be possible to argue they should remain hidden even after firing, but I doubt that would be the case with Moros in the Phillipines. Anyhow, in TSATF the rule is units firing from hidden positions always reveal themselves -- though they certainly can "disappear" again when it's their turn to move next turn, so long as there still is at least one rough terrain hiding place beyond "visibility" of their enemy.

On the flipside, Regular units are allowed to fire into rough terrain areas where they suspect enemy troops may be hiding. Just use the "rough terrain" firing numbers. Over the years I've known some gamers who prefer to use the more difficult to hit "In a building or behind a wall" firing number when regulars fire blindly into rough terrain areas in hope of hitting unseen native troops who may be hiding there, but I never felt the need do so, as the Europeans usually have a tough enough time as it is! This later approach is similar to Dragon Gunner's "blind fire" rule outlined above, though his rule makes things even more difficult for the Regulars. We do something slightly different from Dragon Gunner with regard to the results of "blind fire": the results are seen by everyone and recorded by the Native player WITHOUT REVEALING whether or not any figures are actually hidden in the target area.

Again, with regard to charges, hidden native units may indeed declare a charge from out of their hiding place, but of course they will have to reveal themselves, roll their movement dice in hopes of reaching the target of their charge, and will be unable to fire that turn. In TSATF the "surprise attack" launched from various rough terrain hiding places such as rocks, scrub brush, dry water-courses, rocky hillsides, walled fields and orchards, etc., is a common tactic used by Pathans, Mahdists, Zulus. etc.

With regard to target class of charging natives… it depends on where the Regular unit they are charging at and which is firing at them is located. If the Natives charge out of rough terrain but must move into open terrain in order to reach the Regulars, then the Natives should be Class I or Class II targets, depending on their formation. But if the Regulars are also in the rough terrain, the Natives will have the advantage of being Class III targets and much more difficult to hit.

Most of my TSATF games are set in Afghanistan, but I've always wanted to raise Native regular and irregular forces for the Third Burma War of 1885. One of the reasons is to use TSATF for a campaign in a JUNGLE setting like your Filipino game. I think I would use some special rules like allowing Regulars to spend their movement and/or fire phase clearing jungle, maybe at 1" per figure, in order to gain clear fields of fire. Of course, if the enemy attacks while you are in the midst of doing so and without any friendly units screening or supporting you, it could go very badly!

Last but not least I agree 100% with Dragon Gunner: keep the rule that all the European/American troops are always visible to the Natives! As he says this represents various different dynamics at play, including but not limited to far greater familiarity with the terrain, presence of Native sympathizers, and utilization of primitive but effective local communications methods.

thanks so much…great advices out of all your suggestions…

"This later approach is similar to Dragon Gunner's "blind fire" rule outlined above, though his rule makes things even more difficult for the Regulars"- Mad Guru

I was trying to make a distinction between troops that can barely be seen versus not at all. I am not sure if the regulars are at a disadvantage they tend to have more firearms and in some cases machine guns. What I have found is if both sides want to engage in this type of fire it is hardly decisive. A 20 man rifle unit on average will only hit once per turn when using blind fire and this rarely produces anything that gets anyone excited. It does tend to force the native player to want to come to grips.

Did you use that free Philipines rules supplement (I think from the jackson Gamers page) ?

Yes SmokeyRoan i used that free supplement…quite amusing..it also happens that some juramentados charges were rolled..with no great effect vs volley firing US troops..some holes in the rules were present..