"RAF Tornado woes " Topic

bbc.com/news/uk-30338659

Whilst the main issue seems to be about catering (suck it up flyboys, you're in a war), there are a few pieces of information which if true, paint a damning picture of RAF:

Only 16 of the RAF's 102 Tornado GR4s meet "diamond fleet" standard, which is the aircraft fitted with all of the equipment necessary for combat.

Many of the remainder are now mothballed.

Now the Tornado is out of service in 2019 but one expects that the aircraft is to be maintained in reasonable working order pending retirement.

Especially as the Eurofighter lacks many capabilities of the Tornado (e.g. Brimstone capability) and F-35B won't be in operational service between now and 2019 (and most likely 2021-22).

Interestingly enough Italy's Tornado fleet is in a similar state and it's due to fly to 2025. Again their Eurofighters aren't even as capable as RAF ones in ground attack, their F-35 commitment is in doubt and they have only upgraded about one Tornado squadron to modern full combat capable standard.

And he alleged that the placing of services with contractors meant that Cypriot cleaners at the base were being charged to the UK taxpayer at three times the annual cost of an airman's salary.

This isn't surprising. Government contracts are usually poorly written and contain clauses that enable private contractors to rort the system.

It creates false economies and seldom creates for good service delivery. For example there have been issues with logistics in Afghanistan and lack of proper security has resulted in the deaths of quite a few contractors, especially truck drivers.

It was better when the militaries handled their services in house.

I see it where I work in health too – we outsourced linen and laundry and now it costs more and is far less efficient than when we handled it inhouse.

I hope Vladimir doesn't find out….

Well, when you've outsourced your defense needs to another nation and cut military spending to fund domestic programs and social welfare, I think one might expect that equipment might not be properly maintained.

We could always break out our 'other' Tornado fleet… the surplus aircraft the MOD purchased simply to keep the Panavia consortium from folding when the Dutch pulled out and the Germans halved their order.

They went directly into storage, and have remained there ever since.

We did exactly the same thing with the Eurofighter, though, so hibernating dormice will still have plenty of cockpits to curl up in.

Dutch were never in the consortium. They (and Canada and Belgium) participated in initial studies in 1960s but never formally joined.

The Germans never halved their Tornado order – the initial requirement was 320-ish and they ended up getting 359 operational airframes (of which about 85 will serve to 2025).

The same applies to Eurofighter – both the RAF and Germany have slashed requirements from 250 aircraft to 160 and 143 repsectively.

The "non-required" aircraft were never ordered and won't be built. This includes Tranche 3B from which Germany and Spain have formally pulled out and from which Britain and Italy are expected not to place the order. British Tranche 3B is expected to be "diverted" to Saudi Arabia (total of 72 on order) even though the MoD hasn't actually ordered them.

Both the British and Germans have diverted ordered aircraft to export customers – 24 British Eurofighters to Saudi Arabia and 15 German ones to Austria (replaced in a kind of way with 15 Tranche 2).

Spain has asked for a delay for about 20 Eurofighters and is looking at offloading another 12-15 (total ordered is 73 of which 2 have been lost in accidents).

The Eurofighter orders have been a very contentionus issue with all 4 member states reducing requirements and thus orders.

LOL!

Germany's projected Tonka requirement in 1968? c. 600.
Germany's projected Tonka requirement in 1972? 324.

I've got some hair here, if you'd like to split it.
It's dormouse hair… found in a little burrow, dug in a bag of Blue Circle cement… in a hangar in Shawbury.

But those planes were never ordered or built. Thev West Germans only authorised the Tornado for production in 1976!

It's like saying that there is 563 F-22s are stored somewhere, cause the USAF has an original requirement for 750 but only acquired 187!

The UK acquired over 400 operational Tornados of which about 165-170 were ADV versions that none of the other partners were interested in (though Italy leased about 24 due to delays with Eurofighter). The other 244 were IDS versions (GR1/1A).

Britain certainly did not acquire 140 German destined Tornados.

EDIT: Large numbers of ex-RAF Tornados were scrapped at Shawbury including F3 interceptors as well as surplus GR.1 and even GR.4s.

Much as I love ol' Urban, he shouldn't believe everything grumpy old linies tell him.

"Only 16 of the RAF's 102 Tornado GR4s meet "diamond fleet" standard, which is the aircraft fitted with all of the equipment necessary for combat."

Er no, that means that only 16 have had the latest upgrade package. That absolutely does not mean that the rest are mothballed…

Er no, that means that only 16 have had the latest upgrade package. That absolutely does not mean that the rest are mothballed…

Totally agree. Most are operational even though there's only about 48-60 assigned to flying duties (rest are in various stage of maintenance or flying reserve and get rotated in and out of service).

The bigger concern is that only 16 were to full spec.

This is happening far too often in Western European airforces – I mentioned Italy doing the same with their Tornados. The other aircraft were upgraded but to lower standards or even just SLEPed to ensure they can fly to 2025.

The French did a similar thing to their Mirage 2000Cs. 37 were upgraded to M2000-5 standard and the rest retained in what is essentially a 1980s configuration with minor upgrades. At least 1 squadron of these older 2000Cs is still in service.

The Greeks did the same thing as well – they have a squadron of 1980s M2000Es and a squadron of upgraded 2000-5s which is a mix of new build and upgraded older aircraft).

That depends how recently the spec was upped… I've no idea what the latest spec involves, but if it's a recent upgrade, it stands to reason that the whole fleet won't yet have been upgraded.

Possibly… Or it could indeed be a lack of will/funding, as the article suggests… or not…

Had a quick search on Google:

dodbuzz.com/2014/07/16/royal-air-force-upgrades-tornado-in-shadow-of-f-35

So they're in midst of an upgrade program with 59 aircraft due to get upgrade before fleet shuffles out of service in 2019.

Seems the BBC article is a bit scaremongering. My apologies for posting it up before checking the other facts.

Cheers Deadone.

Dave Waddington… That's a name from the past… :)

Panavia didn't start one sunny morning when a Brit, a German and an Italian hung a shiny sign above their new aeroplane factory, shook hands, and promised to be bestest friends always.

The consortium was established with investment based on projected orders.
It was also set up on the basis that – industrial infrastructure permitting – each member nation would get a share of the manufacturing business commensurate with their contribution to the project.
When those projected sales figures began to fall, consortium members had to either step up and underwrite the shortfall, or risk (A) the less politically-committed members cutting their losses and pulling out, leaving such a large shortfall that the remaining members couldn't make it up, (B) leaving the remaining consortium members starting from square one in contracting out that proportion of the work originally slated for the (now non-participating) nation's industrial sector, and (C) facing dauntingly expensive financial penalties for cancellation of any existing contracted works.

And the least contentious way to do that – and one which has the side-effect of making the project appear more successful – is to order more aircraft than you'll need.

Also… think of the dormice.

But no-one ordered those aircraft.

There are no secret fleets of zero-houred 1980s vintage Tornados languishing in RAF hangars!

They just didn't build those aircraft. There was no production commitment in 1968, just a vague requirement. Just like 750 F-22s for USAF or 250 Eurofighters for RAF back when it was the EAP!

If there were shortfalls to underwrite, the partner states just would've coughed up the money just like with Eurofighter.

Or they would've just made the cash out of the Saudis who brought at least 120 Tornados (96 IDS, 24 ADV) and incidentally 72 Eurofighters.

facing dauntingly expensive financial penalties for cancellation of any existing contracted works.

This a largely modern phenomenon. Otherwise the UK would've got those TSR.2s or F-111Ks or full order of 140 Phantom FG.1s for Royal Navy (order cancelled after 48). USA would've received at least 339 F-22 if not 750 and would be still in the RAH-66 Comanche business.

Cancellations were far easier to do back then. And today you just phase the buy in small batches (e.g. latest UK order for 4 F-35s). No cancellation cost if you don't have firm orders.

In any case the Germans never ordered 600 Tornados and as such 600 German Tornados were never built.

Last time I saw the hangars at Shawbury and Hullavington (circa 1990) they were stuffed with Lightnings and Hunters… God alone knows what's there now. I agree with Deadone though, it's highly unlikely that there's a gigantic reserve fleet of Tonkas ready to go. Some, certainly (especially with successive squadron disbandments), but no massive War Reserve.

Have no fear, F-35s will be available………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….eventually (maybe).

;-)

God help them if they are waiting on the F-35…

I'd love to know what the Saudis have flying and what spec they are upgraded to.

"Seems the BBC article is a bit scaremongering"

Surely not :)

As responsible a piece of journalism as their recent piece on F-35 and carrier it seems

I detect the whiff of sarcasm in some comments…

:)

Jemma – detailed knowledge of the RAF, wargamers and not emigrated to Australia or working in a signals box in Wales….now I'm curious as to your past…

:)

I'd love to know what the Saudis have flying and what spec they are upgraded to.

They've been upgrading their Tornados but I'm not sure to what standard or how many are still airworthy. A few have definitely been lost over the years.

It's actually easier to get details on Iranian aircraft than most Arab ones.

The Iranian military allows far more access to it's military and has a very straight forward serial number system.

I'm still trying to find out how many F-5s Jordan and Saudi Arabia have got in service, if any.

I am an American and I sometimes think, "God help us if we are depending on the F-35s arriving in a timely manner in a decent number in a reasonable time frame."

Oh wait, we have missed all three already.