"eagles of cuirassier regts." Topic

IIRC I recently noticed a posting here on tmp stating that French cuirassier regts. did not carry their eagles into the field. I was not aware of this and wonder if any one could tell me what year this practice began. I had been under the impression that the light cavalry regts. did not carry their eagles into the field after 1808 but that the heavies continued to carry at least one eagle per regt. This concerns me because all my French heavy regts. are flaunting theirs and it seems I am once again guilty of historical inaccuracy with my figures. Thanks for any information you may care to post. John Miller

Does this count as evidence?
link

Korvessa: Thanks for sending the picture. To answere your question until I read the remark I would have thought the picture on the box would be accurate regarding the eagle but now I am not sure.
Thanks, John Miller

This concerns me because all my French heavy regts. are flaunting theirs and it seems I am once again guilty of historical inaccuracy with my figures.

But the flags look good, do they not? This is Napoleonics, looking good trumps minor historical details.

One aigle per regiment in the later years, but yes – the French heavy cavalry did have their aigles on campaign …. unless/until they lost them to the Russians:
For 1812 …
1er cuirassiers. Taken at Taroutino October 1812.
4e cuirassiers. Taken at Malodetchno December 1812.
9e cuirassiers. Taken at Vilna December 1812.
1er carabiniers. Destroyed to avoid capture during the retreat
2e carabiniers. Abandoned and found at Königsberg December 1812.

- Sasha

Mserafin: The flags do look good and of course your right. My concern for historical accuracy has become annoying to even myself.

Alexandre: Thanks, that is the kind of information I love to have. Hate to admit it but some of my French cuirassiers have lost their eagles, much to the chagrin of myself and the delight of my nefarious opponents.

Thanks again to all! John Miller

They did carry the eagle on campaign but the eagle bearer was left behind when charging at the designated rallying point.

Exactly. The eagle would be carried on route and displayed but not unduly hazarded in action. The numbers lost tell you that was not always successful. I recall a cuirassier eagle in the Kazan Cathedral for example in Sr Petersburg. Histories of other units often record occasions when the eagle was "left in the depot" during a campaign ie safe and sound at home!

Mserafin: The flags do look good and of course your right. My concern for historical accuracy has become annoying to even myself.

Don't worry, John, it took me a long time to get over it, too.

von Winterfeldt & Deadhead: I was not aware that the eagles were usually kept at the rallying point. Thank you both for that information. I know the eagles had a special reverence attached to them but, just for my own edification, do you know if that was normal procedure for other armies as well, or was this just a French practice? Thanks, John Miller

Good question, I really don't know, at first each squadron had usually a standard or even eagle, but seemingly they became quite rare in the end, to be almost absent, as in case if I remember correctly the British heavy cavalry at the 1815 campaign didn't carry any cavalry standard (I might be wrong on this).

Albrecht Adam, who was present at Borodino, clearly shows Cuirassiers carrying their eagles in his illustration of the charges against the grand redoubt.

von Winterfeldt & seneffe: Thanks for you responses to my question. I am not familiar with the Albrecht Adam illustration, I have probably seen it but don't remember his name off hand. Thanks again, John Miller

Everyone tells us that, as standards, eagles, flags etc became more and more precious they were less and less hazarded. For French infantry it is worth looking through GMBs list of flags and you'll see some very dull grey stuff used by 2nd battalions. Realistic but not often modelled!

The lighter the unit, obviously the less the regt symbol should be exposed. So hussars, light dragoons/chasseurs, lancers, any "British" cavalry in 1815, Rifles……….. left at home. French heavy cavalry surely carried eagles en route, displayed for review on the 18th morning maybe, but not carried into the middle of those squares!

and yet……..the flags served a purpose. There is first hand evidence for some British Light Infantry carrying a pair of Colours at Waterloo. Edinburgh Castle and Chelsea are good first hand evidence for eagles carried by infantry into harm's way!

and they look so good. My Household Cavalry will carry standards one day

Yes the French did carry their eagles into battle, not only the infantry but also the cavalry even the light cav.
In 1815 we have the memoirs of colonel Bro (4th lancers in Jacquinot's division) clearly stating that his eaglebeare was assailed by several British officersand men during the fighting with the union brigade.
From a wargames perspective, they do look nice.
On the other hand I always failed to see the "purpose" of cavalry standards/eagles, as the cavalry was more mobile and the need for a fixed reference point less acute (anyway the French cav. Eagle/standard was quite small, so not very easy to distinguish in the field). Maybe the fact that they served little practical purpose (contrary to the Flags of infantry regts.) wasreason why the British left their cavalry flags at home.

None of my French 'heavies' carry eagles/standards, indeed none of my cavalry carry standards; but then they are 6mm Adlers and I estimate that the standards would work out at about 3mm square – much too fiddly.

Marcel1809, that is quite fascinating. Of all troops I would have imagined French Light cavalry eg lancers, not risking their eagle on campaign, due to their scattered role off the battlefield.

I have eagles for every unit. My Gendarmes d'Elite have two…………because they look so good

Interesting topic. I had always assumed that units which had a skirmishing function left their standards back at base. So that includes all British cavalry – (even the skirmishing-useless HC apparently) – and all lights of all nations. Dragoons might be a grey area, but continental heavies were likely to carry standards into battle.

It seems now that the truth was far more varied and elusive. Does anyone know the practice among Austrians, Russians and Prussians?

Almost all skirmish formation, both cavalry and infantry, had a formed reserve in the rear to support the skirmishers. I would imagine that is where colors/eagles, etc. were kept.

regarding Prussian light cavalry (classic light cavalry as hussars) no standards in the field – Prussian dragoons did carry them, Austrian hussars again no standards, as for Russians Alexandre surly knows more than me but also there it is most unlikley that true light cavalry did carry standards.

This is not restricted to light cavalry but to a lof of (not all) light infantry as well, Prussian Füsiliere of 1806 – no colours, French light infantry had to hand the eagles to the depot after the disasters of 1807, Russian Jäger did not carry colours.

For Russians, I confirm my colleague von Winterfeldt :
Army regular hussars -: no flags in the field.
Army combined grenadier battalions and all foot jäger – no flags at all in the period (later St. George flags were issued for awards to jäger regiments whose pre-1815 awards had been represented by Saint George trumpets).
For the later dragoons converted to horse jäger, I imagine that to 1815 they did keep there flags in use – but I am not sure.

Oddly, perhaps, it seems that some Cossack, Volunteer and Native Cavalry *did* bring their standards or flags on campaign …. but I suppose that they did not let them get close to the enemy. There may have been more cultural or even totemic feelings for these emblems than in the regular Army, as they represented the "nation" (Russian "narodny" – like ethnic group with political status) and not just a tactical device for the unit.

- Sasha

All Hands: Thanks again to everyone who commented on my question! My French Cuirassiers will keep their eagles and flaunt them inidgnantly in the faces of their misguided opponents at our very next session of "Mobtown Mayhem".
John Miller

Yes – I opt for that as well, generally light cavalry without standarts – heavy with standarts (British 1815 none)