"Perry Castings Part two" Topic

Here is the response to my original post concerning inferior Perry castings, by Alan Perry.

Read it an judge for yourself.
I'll make my own comments later.

Hello Bill

Thanks for sending the pictures. We've had a look at them and can see
there are some unacceptable castings i.e. the ones crumpled on their
bases which just shouldn't have gone out, we apologise for that. We
have shown the mould-maker/caster the photos and the TMP comments.
With the AWI American cavalry he put his hands up and acknowledged
something he tried hadn't worked out. Because of the variation in
uniform type most of the cuffs are slightly different. So the arms had
to go on the same moulds as the horse/rider pieces for that particular
code. With the different thickness' of the these particular parts the
spin speed needs to be carefully tweaked, which was ok for small
batches but was not properly monitored when they started to shift in
large amounts. This caused the arms, horse legs and flashing problems.
To compound the problem the AWI American cavalry had (realistically)
slim legs and hocks. The horse masters were cast, then cast again with
dummies for the riders and then finally with the different uniforms
changes for the various units I wanted to portray. So the horses were
cast three times over instead of once or twice. This made the legs and
supports quite slim. I realized this was a potential problem and did
mention it to the caster to keep
an eye on them. Unfortunately it looks like enough attention wasn't
paid to some of them when taken out of the moulds and made it through
to the packing, God knows how!
We're really sorry about that.
The caster is going recast the AWI cavalry and carefully check them
before they're packed. This may take while.
I spot-checked 11 random packs of the cavalry (I'll check more when I
have time) and found most were fine apart from three packs, out of
those 5 horses had 'wavy' legs and bases which is not the way we like
to see our figures go out. However I bent back into the right position,
taking about 2-3 seconds each. The worms (air vents) are something
which are just the product of casting the quantities that we need to
with this particular metal, which is a bit different (and more
expensive) from what most manufacturers use, I'm afraid. This metal
will bend but will bend back and is more durable than other metals.
If there's a problem with any castings spotted by customers we will
always try to resolve them as soon as we are made aware. If people
either want to
send them back or send pictures we will replace any serious problems.
With the thousands of figures sent out we honestly get very few
complaints.
If you would like use to replace any or would like your money refunded
for the ones you haven't used please let us know.
I must point out only email we had from you, before we emailed you
about this, was that you wanted some separate horses, but nothing
else….
Strangely we did get an email from Brendan this morning concerning the
thread.
I hope this explains why these particular codes have been troublesome.
I will be posting the technical parts of this on TMP
All the best
Alan

Sounds perfectly fair and reasonable. Good for them, and you!

Once again I think the Perry's prove they rock!

Mr Editor, please move this to The Industry board. Once again the TIME LOCK thing strikes.

I think they have done the right thing. So nevinsrip did they make things right for you?

"he put his hands up and acknowledged something he tried hadn't worked out".

Sounds like a swift kick in the pants is in order! :)

I have always had issues with horses' legs with " realistic proportions".
RSM have lovely castings with realistic proportions that are extremely fragile.
I love stumpy legged cavalry, since I know they will not be snapping off at the bases.

I see they glossed over the spider issue. That is what drives me nuts about Perry figures.

However if they do come out with Washington Crossing the Delaware I guess I will have to file off the spiders.

I was told by the USA distributor that they would let the Perry's know about this issue when I complained last Historicon. I guess they never followed through.

A classy response.

"he put his hands up and acknowledged something he tried hadn't worked out".

I am certainly glad to see someone taking responsibility and acknowledging an error. While it is a shame such mistakes are made at least the caster was responsible once the errors were pointed out.

I am also glad that the Perry brothers are looking after quality. Once again they earn the respect they so richly deserve.

I am also glad that the Perry brothers are looking after quality. Once again they earn the respect they so richly deserve.

Are they? Or was it my original post that forced them into it?

By the way, he twins have always offered to make things right.
That was never in question.

I have to think about how they can do that. I've already cleaned and rebent about 30 or so figures. But there are many more that I cannot save. Perhaps I'll just wait until the figures are remoulded or recast and just substitute one for one.

I am sure that they will be more than fair with me.

OK, Here's what I think:

One…Blaming the caster seems like a bit of spin to me. According to this the caster tried something and it didn't work. Fine. His fault.

But you still sold the products anyway knowing (or at least the caster knew) that his "trial" was faulty and he was providing miscast figures to be sold to the public.

Where is the quality control?
When your name is on the package, it's your responsibility to see that the product sold is the best it can be. Period.

Who packs these little boxes? Could they not see what they were packing? And why didn't they say something?

Second. Alan states that he spot checked 11 boxes and found that he could bend the legs back into the correct shape 2 or 3 seconds.
I would love to see him do that with what I got. Or what 45 thDiv got. It took me quite some time, with 2 pair of pliers, just to get the horses to stand up straight.
I'm having a very hard time accepting that one.

Third Worms. Alan states that worms are necessary to the casting process.
Really, because I just received AWI Cavalry from Fife and Drum and there's not a worm to be found anywhere.
TMP'ers buy all kinds of lead. Are they all loaded with worms? Please advise.

And finally. The blame appears to be shifted squarely on the shoulders of the caster. "He threw up his hands……"
And we are expected to accept that he never mentioned this to anyone? Why not? Again, easy to blame him, but you accepted his miscast pieces and sold them. Who's looking out for quality?

A question that begs to be answered.

What about the guy who unpacked the castings after they arrived from the casting house? He didn't notice, either? He didn't say anything to anyone? Again, why not?

When I was working in my former life, I had more that 60 people to supervise. I knew what everyone of them was doing everyday. I never signed anything without reading it. I often bounced paperwork back as unacceptable, because I would not sign my name to a document with spelling, grammar or content errors. In short, I supervised.

Now, I accept the fact that the twins are crazy busy and can't do everything or be everywhere. That's why you hire a supervisor to run the day to day operation. Perhaps that's the answer. And if you already have one, well, he let you down, didn't he/she?

But, in the end, it's your name on that box and it's your reputation that takes the hit when something like this happens.

Bill, I have been collecting and painting lead or similar minis since 1978. Never have I seen so many spiders than on Perry figures.
As an exercise in spread sheet building I once did a pointless inventory on all my miniatures, by manufacturer. When I gave up it was about 130 manufacturers and that was more than 10 years ago. Perry figures were not even around then and neither were worms or spiders.

SOMEONE must have figured out how to make figures without them.
If their caster has told them that such worms or spiders are inevitable, he is spinning a tall tale or he is incompetent.

Anything that is cast by Griffin Moulds in the UK does not have inch long shards of metal sprue still attached to the figures, nor do,they have worms and spiders. Griffin casts for a fair number of figure companies. Companies such as Front Rank and Calpe always produce superior quality castings. The German company that casts the Westphalia Miniatures and the Black Hussar miniatures are also of the highest quality. In other words, there are quite a few companies that do not have problems with flash, worms and spiders.

Finally, quality control at the point where the figures are packed into the little black boxes is lacking. This is low hanging fruit that is easy to fix without incurring additional cost. The packer merely has to pull off the shards of metal with his or her fingers before throwing the figure into the box. It only takes a few seconds to do this.

I am glad to hear that the Perrys are going to delve into the production issues with their AWI cavalry – I would expect no less from them. However, we still need to hear how they intend to deal with the other quality control issues.

I think I will send a letter to the Perrys with pictures of my twisted metal. I am sure they will make good, and I want them to know that their USA distributor is not communicating issue that they get word about.

Well all in all I think the Perry Miniatures company are doing all they can. The issue was raised and they seem to be dealing with it now. What more can you ask for? As for the question of "spin" I think that may be going a little to far- they have to trust the caster to a certain degree, the more time spent randomly checking figs is less time spent sculpting and all the other jobs that come with running the company. Also if you know that the Perry's will replace unsatisfactory figs then why didn't you get them to do just that? Anyway all sorted/being sorted now.
Nb

Agreed.

"This is just a brief note to say that I take full responsibility for the dreadful mess-ups tonight.
If I'd only listened to Mr Fawlty, none of this fiasco would have occurred.
I'd just like to tell you that such a cock-up has never occurred in my career before, and that now everything has been sorted out, I'll be back to my very best form.
Signed, Terr…"

Note from the caster?

To question the "character" of the Perrys is, I think a little over the line.

From where I'm standing they're doing right by you and seem to be intent on fixing things going forward. Customer communicates dissatisfaction, retailer offers fix – job done

As someone who has had a fair bit of Quality control experience in a company I worked at for 27 years, may I venture the opinion that this is not the way to fix things.
Inspecting packed and produced parts is not the answer.
Making a massive effort to replace defective parts already shipped is just a band-aid. At this stage, it is needed, but is not the answer.
Having distributors cover for them because they know it will not help doesn't help.

"Oh, don't be a baby! Why back in the 89s, it took me a half hour to clean all the lead out of the armpits of a Hinchliffe French line infantryman!"

The problem is systemic. There have been complaints about the worms or spiders or whatever on TMP for years. They never got through, because the problems continued.

THE ONLY SOLUTION IS TO GO TO THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM. And that is the method of manufacture and/or raw materials used.
I don't particularly care what quality method you use. All have their points. It takes a dedication to actually FIXING the problem, and not making excuses and replacing defects.
The defects CAN be eliminated. I have seen it done.
Most quality manuals start out with the Bad Example. "Joe's Dry Flies" are made in a unique manufacturing method, and textbook practices do not apply.
Nonsense.
ALL manufacturing follows the same principles, and if you ignore them, your product suffers.
You CANNOT let a manufacturer say "You can't tell ME how to cast lead! I have been doing it since …"

Other casting companies make fine product without the well documented defects that Perry suffers from. It's time they faced up to that. It's a shame to see such fine masters ruined by 30% defect rate. Or worse.

"Oh. just send them back and we will replace them!" is never the answer. How many don't bother to try to replace defects, but swear off the manufacturer? Or in my case, only buy unique units?

I still really don't understand what the fuss is about. An issue is raised. They apologise and look into it. While they look into it they offer to replace any merchandise deemed inferior. Of course forum posters fill the gap very nicely telling each other all the experience of supervising, manufacturing etc experience that THEY have and how if THEY had a company making miniatures of course these problems wouldn't exist. Yawn. I also don't understand why we need a topic that raises the problem, followed by a separate topic that contains the official response as well as conjecture as to the hidden meaning and conspiracy theories. Seems to me anyone that finds the initial topic, doesn't necessarily see that the company in question has responded. Maybe I'm just tired and in a grump. But the typical forum response is so very predictable. At what point have they said "you can't tell me how to cast lead"? Where is the 30% stat coming from? Why am I still ranting? OK- my apologies, I need sleep.
Nb

Just had a look at the first topic. The Perry's responded on the original post, so why was this second post started in the first place? It's all over the same issue. I do not get what this is anymore.
Nb

Totally agreed. The perry's have responded in an open and honest manner. I am sure they are commercially astute enough to know that replacing defective product outweighs the cost and reputational damage of getting the casting right in the first place without us needing to point that out. In the end, consumers vote with their wallets – always.

I for one applaud their response, and trust them to make such changes are necessary to their manufacturing process. To continue to trawl that response for inadequacies or inconsistencies is beginning to look suspicious…

I agree with the OFM. The problem is in the casting process, either because the process itself or the alloy used. Replacing miscast is just a partial answer. They should fix it at the origin, i.e. their caster. If there wouldn't be many examples of perfectly casted miniatures available in the market, we could believe that it is unavoidable. But we know that's not the case. Well casted figures are possible. A polite apology is not enough.

Yes perfectly casted minis are available. The Perry miniatures are, for the most part, an example of this fact. Please don't try to turn this into an issue with ALL of the Perry figs. That isn't true. I would also say that, apart from the problem re: the particular Cav figs that the original topic was talking about,most companies have varying degrees of flash/mold lines that have to be filed off. This is variable not just by company but from batch to batch and is nothing to get so fussed over. While on the topic of the problem with the Cav figs- that problem has been accepted by the Perry's, explained by the Perry's,apologised for by the Perry's and they have expressed the wish to fix said problem. So no an apology isn't enough- they have already done far more than that.
Nb

The 30% stay comes from 3 packs out of 11. Bill's experience is higher.
My own experience is that 100% of infantry castings have far too many worms or spiders on them.
I bought a complete very large Sea Peoples Wargames Foundry army. Perry design. Worm free.
I bought far too many Warhammer figures in my middle youth. Perry design. Worm free.
They have been told about that problem for years and have done nothing about it. More than one has said that here.
It's time they bit the bullet and got a new caster. And also pay a little more attention to the process.

I find it amusing that some seem to think that supervisory and manufacturing experience is irrelevant.
It's also amusing to see the "there is no problem! LA LA LA LA!" attitude.

"metal worms and spiders"

If the problem is truly that bad, that's a lot of metal going out the door as "waste"….

"I do not get what this is anymore."

It's a witch hunt, and/or a horrific fear or arachnids… 8)=

Problem or new period opportunity? How detailed are those bugs? How many manufacturers throw in bonus 10 – 15mm SF miniatures with their 28s?

"and is nothing to get so fussed over."

Yes, there is. I, as customer, have the right to express my discontent with a product that shows a consistent flaw in its design. You won't hear me whine about their plastics.

I tried to use their figures for the Sengoku Jidai, and after trying to imagine for umpteenth time where the hell were the knots of the Samurai armour -too much detail lost in the casting process- I sold all the figures and went to other manufacturers. The same happened when a friend and I decided to collect a couple of armies for the First Crusade, though in that ocassion I just bought a couple of boxes before committing myself. Bottom line is that I have stopped buying their metals, and only buy their plastics (to which I am addicted!)

I know that I am just one guy, and that their bussiness won't be, nor have been, hurt by my decission of not buying their metals until they fix what I believe is a faulty casting proccess. While I appreciate their willingness to be polite and communicate with their customers, I also believe that they are not addressing the problem where it is needed, i.e. in the casting process itself.

I am really happy for you that you can enjoy their metals. Kudos to you. But I am not. That is not making "fuss". It is expressing a desire for a good product from two of my favourite sculpters in this hobby.

PS: It's not totally true that I don't buy their metals at all; as John, I buy those miniatures to which I can't find an alternative, either in plastic or from other manufacturer. The Swiss heads for their Mercenary pikemen are not bad at all.

Try ordering item AWI-125 two wheel powder cart and let us know what you think of the casting quality. I had to drill out the flash between the legs of the horses, repair both of the horses' tails by drilling holes in the torso and using a metal pin to secure the tails, which were broken, remove 15 worms or spiders, and pull off long metal sprue that was still attached to the horse holder figure. The work was easy enough to do, but it took a bit of time. But why should I even have to do this when I can buy competitive products that are cast clean without all of the extra metal flash?

The casting problem extends to more of the range than just the new one piece AWI cavalry. That is the real point of Mr. Nevins' original complaint.

Fair enough then. Just seemed odd to me as I have been buying from them for years and never experienced any of the problems you seem to describe. It's unfortunate for sure, the Perry miniatures are head and shoulders above every other company I have tried out in terms of sculpt quality and in my experience the final product is just as good.
The fact that I questioned the amount of "when I was manufacturing"etc comments is because in my opinion it smacked of puffing up ones ego rather than explaining how the perry manufacturing process works and how it should change.
It also seems coincidental that just before Christmas, a time which is surely important to the company, not one, but two topics concerning the supposedly unusable Perry miniatures should pop up. Even though they are both the same person with the same issue. Why decide to cause a storm now and not the hundreds of times you have had issues with them before?
I hope your problems with Perry are resolved and you can get back to enjoying the best miniatures on the market soon.
Nb

Nap Beginner: I know most of the people that have been commenting on this thread about the casting quality issue and most of them are Perry fans, they own many Perry figures, and they care about this situation otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to talk about it.

I also think that's it makes sense to start a related thread about the company's response, making it easier for readers to find.

I would imagine that there are a fair number of people that have had similar experiences with the casting quality, but for various reasons never talked about it on Internet forums such as TMP. For starters, there is such a cult-like reverence for the Perrys that one gets shouted down at the mere mention of any comment that falls ishort of complementary, so maybe someone just figures "why bother." Or perhaps they think that their experience is an isolated occurrence or maybe they prefer to b a lurker rather than a participant in a forum and don't want to get involved in a controversial topic.

Perhaps they were simply afraid to talk about the topic in a forum such as TMP.

I doubt that there is some hidden agenda to torpedo Perry sales during the Christmas shopping season. You heard Alan Perry say it, they ship thousands of figures each week and the complants of a few people are harly going to make a dent in their sales.

For a company that many regard as the Industry Standard, perhaps some people simply feel that the Perrys could do better in the area of quality control.

I have bought thousands of figures since 1975. I have cleaned up minifigs (15 and 25), old glory 15's, old glory 25's, FAA, Airfix, Ral Partha,Minifigs and Grenadier, Foundry , and so many others.

The single pose for fusiliers, or the one officer pose, or one drummer, or the minifigs faces, or the square packs on Minifigs Danes. No figures are prisitine – preparation is required.

If you inform Perry Miniatures they look after the issues. We all know that. So why 2 long threads, particularly by someone who is a direct competitor, smacks of something other than what it appears to be.

So Perry Miniatures keep up the good work. If I have any problems I will let you know. If I need to clean up some figures I am ok with that to have 20 different figures in a 36 figure battalion.

Welcome to TMP Cammy Jammy. I see that you signed up 3 days ago. I hope that we see many more posts from you in the future.

We all know that. So why 2 long threads, particularly by someone who is a direct competitor, smacks of something other than what it appears to be.

Yes, Cammy. You got me.
It's all part of my plot.
Once I'm done with Perry, I'll move onto Fife and Drum next.
Pretty soon I'll have the entire market all to myself.
That was my plan from the beginning.

Very clever of you to have discovered it.
My compiments.

So if you got a reponse, both privately and on the other thread, why this one?

Possibly because they are not addressing the root cause of the problem.
Yhey are replacing defective parts, which is nicwe of them, but give no assurance that there will not be the exact same problem in the future.

The worms (air vents) are something
which are just the product of casting the quantities that we need to
with this particular metal, which is a bit different (and more
expensive) from what most manufacturers use, I'm afraid. This metal
will bend but will bend back and is more durable than other metals.

This is an important remark from Alan that I believe is being overlooked.

The consensus seems to be that the sculpting is exceptional but is undermined by the worms, that we are required to remove, and the distortion of the figures due to excessive bending, which can only result from either shipment or during the production phase.

Alan's comments seem to infer that both the worms and the bending are a result of the choice of metal that the figures are cast with. If the metal was different, there might be less worms, but the figure would be less malleable. I suppose they could use a different metal – but then we'd probably moan about too many broken swords and bayonets.

Personally, I'm prepared to accept the task of bending the figures back into the correct position, and the removal of the worms [although I'll admit this does suck], simply because the sculpting is something that I appreciate greatly.

Figure preparation, pre-priming, is simply another aspect of the hobby – when I started in wargaming I used to have to snip endless Airfix figures from plastic sprues, or carefully remove flash from the occasional metal figure – nothing has really changed – just the quality of the product sculpting.

Mr OFM

I don't see your logic. My reading of the Perry response is that they are dealing with the production.

ANd the metal choice is a big deal. The models are designed to be good locking, not always good casting. I will continue to clean up and will not complain unless I get broken figures that cannot be pinned.

"Figure preparation, pre-priming, is simply another aspect of the hobby – when I started in wargaming I used to have to snip endless Airfix figures from plastic sprues, or carefully remove flash from the occasional metal figure – nothing has really changed – just the quality of the product sculpting."

And when you started did you use blankets with books underneath as terrain?
Things have progressed since then. I buy hundreds of figures from all sorts of makers. How is it that most of them are flash and worm free?

Fife and Drum are worm and flash free. Give me one good reason that Perry figures should not be the same.

As for posting a "part 2", I did that so that the information did not get overlooked in a few days old thread. I think that if you scroll through the pages of TMP you'll find plenty of "part 2" or continuations of original posts. It's really not unusual here.

But you wouldn't know that, Mr Cammy, becasue you've only been here for 3 days.
Interesting that you joined just as this thread was published. A suspicious person might wonder about that.

Bonne Homme Richard: Yeah your probably right in calling me up on that one, I feel I did go a little far in suggesting that this is all about messing with christmas sales. Sorry folks.
Having said that however, I do still think this is a storm in a tea cup. Yes Perry figs are held in higher esteem than most BUT I don't expect the manufacturing to be a revolution compared to other model makers-they are still cast just like other companies are doing.
Look at the Perry response- apart from instantly (and I have no idea how this would be possible) change the manufacturing process and the type of metal they use and still have time to fulfill the Christmas orders and have no problems with the new process- what more do you want? They are swapping any of the bad products, they are looking into the problem, they have responded quickly. Also the point that swapping figs is bad practice due to the cost for the company falls down for me. Yes if the problem was as wide spread as some would have us believe then Perry's would be bust- too much free merchandise. The fact they are financially able to do the free swap proves that the problem isn't that widespread.
Nb

Oh yeah Cammy shame on you! You haven't been a member for very long like others on this forum so don't you dare think anyone will want to hear your thoughts!!!!! Bloody upstart!!!
:)
Nb

I buy hundreds of figures from all sorts of makers. How is it that most of them are flash and worm free?

Maybe, as the Perry's point out, it's because of the metal they use, which apparently requires more vent holes, which unfortunately results in worming, but produces more durable and 'bendable' figures.

Also the point that swapping figs is bad practice due to the cost for the company falls down for me.

Relying on swapping bad figures is bad practice if that is the extent of your quality control.
It does not address the root cause. This is not a new problem. It has been going on for years.
Other companies do not have that problem.
An analysis of the entire manufacturing process is needed.
If the alloy used is to blame for spider worm vents, then why stick with it? Are their figures " different" or "better" so they need that alloy ? I hardly think so.

This belongs in a quality text, as it is classic for ignoring the problem for years. Inevitably the defects are expensively replaced, those turned off by defects who do not complain stop buying and the issue goes unresolved because they are convinced that they are doing the right thing.

I have no dog in this fight. I am not a manufacturer but a consumer who is disgruntled because he had purchased annoying product in the past.

As for Bill being a manufacturer, look at his OP in Part 1. He is no competition for him, not are they to him. He deliberately makes product that fills niches that Perry do not make. If people stopped buying Perry figures , what does he make where the slack would be filled by ordering from him? The Highlanders? His are similar but different. The OMM with different heads and his Raggeds are definitely NOT duplicates of Perry.

And to get this away from Bill and Fife and Drum, order a bunch of Eureka figures. They have not been mentioned and are definitely a different caster. Very similar to Perry on style and no defects.

Well I wish I was one of the Perry's because then I would make Westphalians. I am just a plain old gamer I am afraid.

I don't know of a process that doesn't leave a "parting Line" due to the nature of centrifugal casting. In fact my KMM highlanders needed filing…..

Anyway it seems this thread (which is why I joined) is quite contentious. You might wonder, as I do, what the beating drum is all about, after the rational response from Perry Miniatures.

I too have contacted the Perrys in the past about a casting issue on a Prussian Napoleonic wagon. The lid was cast broken and the back edges didn't come in. They said they would look into the issue. I purchased it this time but the only issue fixed was the broken part of the casting. The back of the lid still doesn't come in like it should.

And, in looking at their Napoleonic figures that I purchased a year before but haven't done anything with yet, I found that they were poorly cast, with loss of detail, you could see were the rubber had not flowed right into areas thus leaving areas under the Bicorne hats that will need to be cleaned then filed.

I have talked to others in a gaming group that I know, who buy a lot of Perry figures, but have now cut back due so cost verses quality. One has even started contacting sculptors and casting companies to make his own figures.

In retail, it is never the customer who complains in a nice manner that you have to worry about it is the person who buys and then never buys again but is willing to tell others in their gaming group why.

And if I were the Perry's I would make a whole range of minis for C18th India. And they would be superb sculpts researched to their usual high standard and a "complete" range rather than a few pieces that happened to interest me.

If I had to bend a few into shape, and file off a few worms, because the metal used was chosen for durability and so that it did not break whenever manipulated, I would still consider this to be time well spent. Particularly when a few minutes cleaning is compared to the hours I will spend painting the damn things.

The Perry's have offered to replace those items which are genuinely miscast, and rightly so. For the rest, if you don't like their product -don't buy it; but understand that there are lots of us out there who disagree, and are very happy with the service that they receive.