"World War 2 aerial combat...with counters!" Topic

I know this is a miniatures page, but….

Can anyone recommend a nice card or counter driven ww2 aerial game that isn't too easy?

I used to play Airforce ( expansion Dauntless) By battleline games. long OOP . Great game Avalon Hill did Messerschmidt .

The Fighting Wings series: link

(I'm hoping you really did mean "isn't too easy," otherwise FW is in the wrong space.)

Try to find Buffalo Wings for the intro rules link

Here's a shot from a Spitfires Over Darwin campaign in action. "This is the first encounter in an ongoing mission game. The three Zeros are scouts for a larger trailing Japanese force of bombers and fighters. They are tying up the "big wing" enemy intercept group trying to hit the bombers." link

I think that game is exactly what I'm looking for, however, it's going to be expensive!!

Is there one series in that set of the rules better than the other?

Whistling Death is the latest rules. Are you asking about which is the best subject? That really depends on taste. Huge amounts of good material in all of them. Full wing B-17 missions, carrier battles, one-vs-one combats, the number of scenarios is vast, the subject matter is broad, and the size of the scenarios ranges to meet all circumstances.

There's also a big presence on Yahoogroups where there's always a lot of PBEM games going on. Teaching games for new players open regularly. (PBEM is great for ridiculously large games because you can actually have one player per aircraft, but they don't move with blazing speed!)

I was thinking Buffalo Wings. They seem less complex than Whistling Death (although they are the same series)

I'm just looking for a set of rules that are fairly complex that I can use counters with. I'd love to get my hands on as many aircraft stats as I can, but I'm totally fine making my own.

Am I right is assuming BW is a little more dumbed down vs WD?

The following sets of rules were based off the Mustangs! game from Avalon Hill. It may come under the heading of "Too Easy" but since they are free they are worth a look. Personally I found them to hit a sweet spot for complexity and playability when the optional rules for spotting and wingmen were added in.

link

Only stats for Battle of Britain but a nice set of rules can be found here (whole game too). (I game with the owner of these rules but no commercial interest,etc…)

link

@acctingman
"I'd love to get my hands on as many aircraft stats as I can, but I'm totally fine making my own"

That might be a bit harder than you think.

Fatman

Reference Blue Skies it is a very simple set designed to let a player handle large numbers of A/C, so it doesn't fit your criteria. It is however a very fun set. I am a long time fan of the Air Force/Dauntless rules. While long out of print they can be picked up on EBay. Get the original version by Battleline not the Avalon Hill version if at all possible.

Fatman

Blue Skies is expensive as all heck, right?

But those rules might be what I'm looking for as I want a set of rules that allow for 20+ planes on the board at one time.

There's a vast selection of aircraft for Fighting Wing, especially when you throw in the aircraft from Airpower Journal. There are also unofficial aircraft at Uncle Ted's uncleted.jinak.cz/adcframe.htm

Does anyone know if Black Sky/Blue Cross has data for additional aircraft not in the original game?

Does anyone know if Black Sky/Blue Cross has data for additional aircraft not in the original game?

Presume you mean Black Cross/Blue Sky. That's strictly a BoB set, but the Lost Squadrons expansion adds Polish, Dutch and French aircraft, more British bombers and Ju 52 bombers. 1939-40 Blitzkrieg era.

Still in print is the original series of Blue Skies rulebooks. I think On Military Matters is having a sale on them now. No cardboard airplanes, maps or fancy stands, these are just rulebooks. The aircraft stats in the books are generally compatible all through the series, including with the new BC/BS edition rules. Books from the old series are:

Red Sun/Blue Sky – 1942 Pacific and East Asia
White Star/Blue Sky – 1943-5 8th Air Force vs. Luftwaffe
Red Star/Blue Sky – 1941-5 Eastern Front
Blue Sea/Blue Sky – 1940-3 Mediterranean

There's also a Blue Skies Yahoo group with files posted that include some add-on planes, such as a set for 1944-5 Pacific. Also the Luftwaffe '46 and Kamikaze '46 games are compatible.

Probably best to take it in stages, as the rule books do.

Thanks Zippy

Trying to figure out what game is right for me :)

acctingman

ping me on fatman_bear1@yahoo.co.uk

Fatman

Trying to figure out what game is right for me :)

Black Cross/BS is a great way to start if you don't already have a comprehensive set of models for BoB. The cardboard planes make a nice starter set with the stands included in the game, and justify the cost of the game. You can of course use the cardboard planes and stands for other 1/300 scale rules.

If you already have a dozen each of Hurricanes, Spitfires, Defiants, Gladiators, Blenheims, Messershmitts (109 & 110), Heinkels, Dorniers and Junkers (87s & 88s), then you're paying for a lot of fancy cardboard you don't need in BC/BS. The cardboard planes in Lost Squadrons build nicely onto those in BC/BS.

If you already have a comprehensive collection of 1/300 models, flight stands and a good hex game mat, then Red Sun/Blue Sky contains the basic 1st edition rules; you need it to play all the other rulebooks. It's a good place to start, with scenarios pre-rolled for the big carrier strikes at Coral Sea and Midway, and Flying Tigers vs. Japanese Jingbaos.

From everything that I'm reading, it looks like BC/BS is the game I'm looking for. It's just….pricey, but gaming ususally is.

I'm seriously thinking of going 1/600 mini's on some cheap Litko stands as I'm not a huge fan of cardboard (if I can help it)

Does anyone know is Mustangs lends itself well to 20+ planes on the table at one time?

I'm getting, from hours of research, that if I want 20+ planes on the map, that I'm going to lose some accuracy.

Are there any other rules that can accommodate that many planes at once and still provide some detail?

Thanks everyone

I'd say that 20 aircraft at once is kinda the high end for Mustangs – not that it is complex but the book keeping will start driving the players nuts at that point.

Thanks Dynaman

That narrows it down some!

I'm getting, from hours of research, that if I want 20+ planes on the map, that I'm going to lose some accuracy.

It's not just the number of planes, it's also the number of players. I think we're all presuming you want a two-player game, with each player running an entire air group. Unless you want to spend a day playing out each game turn, you'll have to reduce the per-plane detail.

The most planes I've ever run in a Mustangs game was 18. Mustangs/Air Pirates my favorite WWII airwar rules.

As the GM, I ran a squadron of 8 bombers basically on auto-pilot, flying straight and level in formation from one end of the map to the other. I could have run a dozen or more bombers if I'd had the models, no problem.

Three interceptor players each flew a two-plane element of fighters. Two escort players each flew a two-plane element of fighters. So five players ran a total of ten fighters, two each. I could have accommodated another couple of players.

The game ran about three hours, seemed reasonably balanced, the players all said they had fun. By the end, I was a little hoarse from barking orders. "Turn 2, impulse 2. Speed 2, 3, 4, 5 planes move."

I'm going solo Zippy!

I'm going commando, myself.

Wait. That was Too Much Information, wasn't it? I do go on.

Now that I understand your requirements better…you might look for a copy of the Squadrons rules. This set was the original precursor to Blue Skies. Squadrons is not totally compatible with the BS series, which were further developed in some directions, but it was very popular in its day and a lot of fun in its own right. Since it's just a rule book, it will probably cost you $15 USD or $20. USD On Military Matters may even have a copy in stock.

Squadrons is a Battle of Britain set that includes all the major aircraft types and a full set of historical scenarios of various sizes. BC/BS is a rewrite of Squadrons for the 2nd edition Blue Skies rules.

Thanks Zippy

I'll see if I can find them. If I can't I might just plunk down the $$ for BC/BS

So…..

White Star/Blue Sky, Red Star Blue Sky, etc…are older versions of the new Black Cross/Blue sky rules?

The Blue Sky books….does one have the rules or do all the additional books have the rules too with additional aircraft/scenarios?

How much have the rules changed from Blue Sky to Black Cross?

I'd rather spend $20 USD on rules than $80 USD for Black Sky.

My suggestion isaminiatures game that plays well with counters or 1/600 scale aircraft. The rules are Bag the Hun by TOOFATLardies. They work well with large bomber boxes and are my go to rules for such battles.

I do have many years of experience with the Fighting Wings system, but you need a lot of experience doing big raids. FYI I playtest the first three rule sets two times a week for five years.

The basic first edition Blue Skies rules are in Red Sun/Blue Sky. Later books in the series add aircraft data, scenarios and more rules for the later campaigns. You need RS/BS in order to play WS/BS, RS/BS + WS/BS to play RS/BS, and so on.

BC/BS consolidates all four of the first edition rule sets into a single seamless volume. I don't think BC/BS adds to or changes any part of the consolidated first edition rules, but it's easier to comprehend and to reference.

Red Sun/Blue Sky would be the less expensive way to try the system out. Or Squadrons, if you want to start with BoB.

Thanks for the clarification Zippy

And thanks to all who contributed to my post, much appreciated