| janner | 17 Dec 2014 11:45 a.m. PST |
The use of 'billman' is anachronistic and risks being misleading. So I don't use it myself, preferring 'foot'. |
| MajorB | 17 Dec 2014 12:44 p.m. PST |
. I don't see the actual tactics and drill/training changing much throughout the whole period of the WotR. The big difference between the HYW and the WOTR is that in the WOTR both sides had the warbow. I think that would change tactics noticeably … |
| Great War Ace | 18 Dec 2014 9:02 a.m. PST |
The only change was that shooting was reduced to a much shorter phase!… |
| MajorB | 18 Dec 2014 10:31 a.m. PST |
The only change was that shooting was reduced to a much shorter phase!… Well I was thinking along the lines of ALL troops fighting on foot for a start … |
| Great War Ace | 18 Dec 2014 11:35 a.m. PST |
But we already know that that is not true, just most of the time. Like the HYW. Captal de Buch at Poitiers, that's it for mounted attacks in the major battles. At Verneuil the English reserve, or baggage guard, might have been partly mounted. With both sides having the warbow in copious numbers, I think that it's remarkable that there were any examples at all of mounted troops in the WotR…. |
| MajorB | 18 Dec 2014 1:55 p.m. PST |
just most of the time. Alright, I'll settle for most of the time. With both sides having the warbow in copious numbers, I think that it's remarkable that there were any examples at all of mounted troops in the WotR…./q>So do I. |
| janner | 19 Dec 2014 12:58 a.m. PST |
Mounted troops could be effective if kept out of range until the arrow exchange was largely complete, and keeping some of your best trained and equipped troops in reserve was hardly unusual in earlier north west European medieval battles. Which may bring us back to the requirement for senior nobles to be seen in the front line during this civil war for the reasons GWA gave earlier (fears of treachery etc). |
| MajorB | 19 Dec 2014 4:11 a.m. PST |
until the arrow exchange was largely complete, Not sure what you mean by "largely complete". Arrow resupply was well developed by the late 15th century, so the archers would have easy access to plenty of arrows to deal with any mounted charge. |
| Great War Ace | 19 Dec 2014 9:29 a.m. PST |
Maybe until the arrow duel is over and the yeomen are stuck in the melee? Then you can emerge on a flank or on the rear with mounted troops and do what cavalry do best. Blanking on the name of the WotR battle where that happened, heh…. |
| janner | 19 Dec 2014 12:21 p.m. PST |
Except when the chaps who would have been mounted were required for the aforementioned reasons to be on foot with their retinues of course :-) Do either of you have examples were the archers initiated a subsequant arrow storm after the first exchange, i.e. much later during a battle, and after the foot were engaged? |
| MajorB | 19 Dec 2014 3:41 p.m. PST |
Mounted troops could be effective if kept out of range until the arrow exchange was largely complete, The best example of the use of mounted troops in the WOTR is at the battle of Tewkesbury where the "200 Spears" attacked the Lancastrain flank from Tewkesbury Park. This attack occurs before the Lancastrian right and Yorkist left battles are engaged, so precedes the "arrow storm". |
| Great War Ace | 19 Dec 2014 9:02 p.m. PST |
Tewkesbury, that's the one. I had forgotten that the charge was before the lines had engaged. There are not any examples of resumed "arrow storm" after engaging in melee, none that I know of anyway…. |
| janner | 20 Dec 2014 12:57 a.m. PST |
Ah, I thought that you were referring to Bosworth, GWA. |
| CAG 19 | 28 Dec 2014 12:47 a.m. PST |
This attack occurs before the Lancastrian right and Yorkist left battles are engaged, so precedes the "arrow storm". At Tewkesbury, I thought the reason for this manouvre was because Somerset believed his troops to have taken enough from the Yorkist fire. |
| CAG 19 | 28 Dec 2014 10:53 a.m. PST |
@Major B
What evidence is there that the 200 Spears at Tewkesbury were mounted? @general comment
Also the I thought the attack out of the area of Tewkesbury park occurred after the manouvre of Somerset as well. If it preceded it then it is unlikely that Somerset would have continued his advance and ended up unsupported. |
| Great War Ace | 28 Dec 2014 2:17 p.m. PST |
Is there another source that refers to "spears" as infantry? I don't know of one. To make specific reference to "spears", in a period when the spear literally does not exist as a formational weapon any longer (in England), must refer instead to couched lances, which definitely do exist…. |
| CAG 19 | 28 Dec 2014 2:41 p.m. PST |
Most references I can find make a reasoned argument that it could apply to foot troops but due to the potential location it was most likely to be mounted. As it was used as a specific example of mounted troops I wanted to know if there was any another info. I can't find any details other than scant references |
| MajorB | 28 Dec 2014 3:27 p.m. PST |
This attack occurs before the Lancastrian right and Yorkist left battles are engaged, so precedes the "arrow storm". At Tewkesbury, I thought the reason for this manouvre was because Somerset believed his troops to have taken enough from the Yorkist fire.
I don't understand your comment. How would the Lancastrian commander Somerset's feelings about his troops make any difference to when the Yorkists launched their flank attack? |
| CAG 19 | 28 Dec 2014 3:39 p.m. PST |
Yorkist artillery and archery fire on Somerset
Somerset moves his battle around the dead ground and contacts the Yorkist left battle
At some point during the fight the 200 spears engage Somerset in the flank. So what I meant is that the attack you and GWA mention occurs after the arrow storm and is a subsequent attack. The 200 spears can only attack because Somerset has responded to events to his front |
| MajorB | 28 Dec 2014 3:49 p.m. PST |
Somerset moves his battle around the dead ground and contacts the Yorkist left battle Dead ground? What dead ground? And what I meant by "precedes the arrow storm" is that although the Yorkists had fired artillery and shot arrows at the Lancastrians, it does not appear that the Lancastrians had shot back, so the Yorkist mounted charge by the 200 spears is not kept out of range until the "arrow exchange was largely complete". |
| CAG 19 | 28 Dec 2014 3:54 p.m. PST |
We are talking Tewkesbury here….just to make sure
The accounts say that Somerset moves his battle around the flank by a Route which is unknown to Edward. This is taken in most accounts quoting Arrivall be a mixture of the dead ground behind the hill, wooded tracks and ditches (had to change the Dutch word as it bleeped) I apologise if you think I am a going a bit deep into your posts but I am very interested in Tewkesbury as it one of the refights I want to do. |
| MajorB | 30 Dec 2014 4:12 a.m. PST |
"But Edmond, called Duke of Somerset, … with his fellowshipe, somewhat asyde-hand the Kyngs vaward, and, by certayned pathes and wayes therefore afore purveyed, and to the Kyngs party unknown, he departed out of the field, passyd a lane, and came into a fayre place, or cloos, even afor the Kynge where he was embatteled, and, from the hill that was in one of the closes, he set right fiercely upon th'end of the Kyngs battle."
- from Arrivall:
link (p29) It is clear from this passage that Somerset's target was "the King's battle" (i.e. the centre of the Yorkist line) so that this was not in fact a flank attack. Earlier, the text describes the ground between the armies as "evil lanes, deep  s, hedges and trees and bushes". I suppose you could describe that as dead ground. Although to me the term "dead ground" implies being out of the line of sight due to undulations of the ground, whereas the description in the Arrivall just seems to be fairly dense terrain. Not quite the same thing IMHO. |
