"Population density" Topic

Here in the UK we go to shows to buy stuff. I go to UK shows to put on demo games which are not usually open to attendees to play in. I understand the the notion of the 'demo-game' is a rare thing in the USA because most gamers go to shows to game not watch.

In the UK the way we use shows is different because we are 60 million living on a small island with lots of war gamers (and shows). I live in a town in West Yorkshire and I personally know about a dozen gamers within a 20 minute drive – almost half within a 10 minute walk. I know only a few of many, many more because I know enough. Consequently, games are easily had and shows are for showing and buying – they are trade fairs.

I understand that in the USA gamers are much more sparsely spread. I understand that this is why gamers go to play games at shows. Is this actually true, or do US gamers have a different mind set? What about the cities? Except at conventions, do gamers in the USA keep themselves to themselves? How far will you drive for a game? In the mid-USA (flew over its emptiness once or twice), is solo pretty much the only game to be had?

Oh, and whilst I'm with the questions, over here war gamers are largely seen, by the female of the species, as failed train-spotters (because train spotters have the decency to do what they do in full public view), how are they viewed in the USA?

I am an American, and I think wargamers are just as social with each other here, but the geography drives the different behaviors.

To give you some data, I drove 4 hours last weekend one way to attend a convention and put on a participation game. I personally have driven 2 hours for a game.

I do like hosting games in my home and I also enjoy playing solo as well.

I took a 5 hour flight to go to Historicon and didn't play a single game. I just went to watch some games and to buy lots of miniatures!

I am lucky enough to have a great gamestore within 20minutes drive from my house. Some of the gamers drive an hour to get there, most about 30min.
When I go to a convention I go to buy and try new rules.

I drive about 25 minutes one way each week to game with a group of friends.
I was in England from 1978-1980. I drove from Lakenheath to Cambridge a few times to game with people there. They were amazed that anyone would go that far for a game.
I think most people here don't really know about the hobby. I usually have to explain what we do, as they don't really comprehend it.

I'm speaking as someone who lives in Canada.
I game weekly and it's about a 25 minute drive both ways. I'm lucky that I have 3 or 4 game stores within an hours drive of my home but they don't carry historical miniatures or rules. I shop at the stores mostly for paints. Most of my purchases are online.
As far as conventions go Hotlead in Ontario is only 40 minutes away by car. I don't normally game and go for the shopping and meeting friends I only get to see at the convention.
I have made the trek to Cold Wars three times (about an 8 hour drive) and have not played any games but did a lot of ahopping.
I have been to Historicon once and that was a 12 hour drive. I did play in two games there but again I went mostly for the experience and the shopping.

I have a friend who will regularly drive to my home to play and that's about 90 minutes for him one way.

Distances in North America are much greater and gamers spread so far apart that getting a chance to play regularly can be very rare for some. I think many gamers would be frustrated at driving great distances to see great looking games and not be able to participate if they wanted to.

As far as what women might think of our hobby in Canada, I don't think many even know it exists. Unless they know someone in the hobby it's not something that ever comes up.

From a personal impression there seems much more of a FLGS culture in the US than exists here.

There are a few GW stores but very few others.

Yes, geography and population clusters are a big determiner of where and when.

When I lived on the East Coast, I had a 40 minute drive to the local game store. I knew of no one in my city that also gamed, although percentages would indicate that there was…..I just never ran into them.

When I lived in the Mid West, it was a 90 minute drive to the Last Square, but little gaming went on there and I never played in that store. There were a few spots scattered around Madison and I did play two games at one location, but it was more of a club than a store.

Returning to the Weat Coast sees me gaming almost twice a week, every week. Local game store is 15 to 20 minutes away and on a good night there are upwards of 50 people playing various games.

While the population density is greater the further east one gets from my present location, having a good place to buy and gather for a game is key for me. While most of my purchases are made online anymore, the local store does get a good chunk of my business because I keep returning to it so frequently.

As far as female gamer go, I see from six to ten regulars each week, mostly on the board gaming nights, but I do know that many more play the card games and less the miniature games. One young woman paints miniatures for cash, but she does not play all that often.

Gaming, in general, is becoming more of an acceptable social activity, in my experience, but the type of game and quality/appearance of the gamers does play a part in gaining new participants.

We can be a squidgy crowd…

As another jolly Canuck I can say that distance here is not viewed in quite the same frame as in the UK – for example, when I was in university I routinely drove home one or two weekends a month – 5 hours each way

I am lucky enough to be a short drive to our gaming group – one guy I regularly game with drives about an hour each way for a game

And gaming is very social and also mostly male – although I can get the Missus to play Wings of Glory

The idea of a demo game is unusual in the US. Why would I want to drive somewhere and watch someone else play a game? I go to shows to play games. If I happen to buy something, fine. If the dealers don't have anything I want, I can live with that too.

Edit to say that most people in the US are not aware of miniatures gamers, and, if they are, you generally get the comment that they know someone who plays 40K or Mage Knight (or something like that).

I think it depends on where in the US. I live near Austin, TX and there are hundreds of gamers within a 20 minute drive and several Game Stores and a few yearly Cons in town.

It does depend on where in the US. I can walk to a game store where I live.

Also I know a bunch of gamers around the area and get together with them on a regular basis.

As already stated we are far more spread out and it depends on where you live in the States in regards availability of players and game stores. I live in Charlotte, NC and there are three game stores that are about a 40 minute drive one way. I mainly attending a scheduled gaming day at one of these once a month. Most of the gaming I do is with friends that are within 30 to 15 minutes drive of one another and we tend to meet once a week if possible at one particular house that has the space to put on games.

I drive to war game conventions to both run participation games and participate in games. Historicon is the biggest one and is currently a six hour drive one way to attend. Other convention range from being a 2 + hour drive or 9 hours to attend Fall In or Cold Wars.

" flew over its emptiness once or twice " LOL! Was that you?
I'm in Iowa, one of those fly-over states. I lived in Des Moines for several years and gamed monthly with a group in a Game Store there. Had to drive 30 minutes but that was no problem. Now I'm in a town of 4000 and not a single gamer to be found. When I tell people of my hobby, I have to explain it. Some folks get it and some dont. Since XBOX and all that tech stuff came around there are less and less of us gamers. Why bother with all that set-up work when you can just Zap dazzling, colorful aliens with a simple click of a button…
Esthetics seem lost on the U.S. population. That and patience.

Kallman, is that at Eric's?

James, Ilkley.

I drive an hour, each way, just to get to work each day so driving at least that far to enjoy a game is not a big deal. As we all enjoy gaming for different reason, it is easy for gamers here to fall into cliques as opposed to the gaming clubs I read so much about on European blogs.

Some are history buffs for which there is just as much interest in researching uniforms, tactics, order of battle then acquiring, painting and organizing armies as there is in actually playing. They tend to paint both sides and continually search for the rule set that they feel best represents the era being gamed. For that reason they also tend to be rule experts which is not always appreciated by more casual gamers. They also tend to zone into one era and disparage others creating even more fragmentation of an already small subset. Then there are even those that want a pure simulation of historical events. Why go to a live music performance and expect it to sound exactly like the radio?

Some are just gamers who will play anything "as long as it's fun". Since they hop around so much they don't tend to actually spend time digging into a rule set. Ever play with anyone who never knows the rules? They tend to be "flavor of the month" or "look, there's something new and shiny" This can be very frustrating to players who spend time and money to buy the rules, learn them, buy and paint figures, just to find that the group has moved on and "nobody is playing that any more".

I realize these are generalizations and there are plenty of gamers who will say that neither of the above accurately describes them. Just goes to show how fractured the gaming community can be. Now let's throw all those people together in a convention setting. Most just want to seek out and game with like mind souls rather than watch others in s demo game. Shopping is a secondary concern at best. With so many on-line merchants, I can image it is really hard for the brick and mortar guys to compete at a convention. It has been my observation that more gets sold at the swap meet/flea market portion of the convention than at the vendor tables. I try to make a sympathy purchase at every convention that I go to because I know that the set-up fees the vendors pay is helping to offset my admission price.

I have to admit that I am very jealous of the clubs and venues that are available in England. To me it seems like the best of both (as if there were only two options) worlds. Less painting, more playing, more diversity. Or maybe it's just that the grass always looks greener on the other side (of the pond).

Warhawkwind……a TOWN of 4000?!!!

That would be called a village over here!!!

I grew up in a small town that had a population of 23000. Now I live on the edge of London people laugh at how small that town was! I am jealous of the amount of space most American gamers seem to have. Can't win really, can you….

Warhawkwind, I'm in the same boat as you. Moved from a KC suburb to an Iowa town of ~5000. Gaming now means whatever I can convince my nephews and kids to play.

Mostly boardgames now, with some miniature skirmish action. Anything that takes more than 1-2 hours usually ends with players wandering off and never coming back :)

I have resisted solo games, but now I understand the allure!

As mentioned above, it really depends upon where you live, and the sort of games you are into.

Near major metropolitan cities, you'll find a lot more wargamers, and/or miniatures gamers, I suspect.

I'm within 30 – 45 minutes of one, and we probably have at least 50 regulars in a couple of clubs that game. A lot more just a little further from that, or not part of our club, given how many attend the gaming conventions here, e.g. 500 – 1,000+

My limit for travel to a convention is about an hour. 3, at the outside, but that is very rare.

As for popularity/exposure with the general public, I guess it depends upon who you are talking to. It's not something you want to bring up with just anyone, most likely, first time you meet, since it is still a rather obscure, and misunderstood hobby in some social circles.

I lived in London in 1988 and 1989. The only game stuff I found was the usual GW stores. I wish I had known about the clubs then.

I'm in the USA now and I have a fairly regular group that meets at my house to game. I supply the terrain and figures, set up and put away the game. This has been the first time that I have not had to drive somewhere to play. I have driven 2 hours one way to play when I was younger. Only living where I do now are there a few local stores to game in. They are for the most part GW, FOW, Malifaux and such type of games so I don't stay to play.

Matthew

@ Olicana,

Eric's is one of the places but I mainly frequent Nazrat's place as he also has a dedicated war gaming room.

I live in a town of 8 million. I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 historical gamers here. As for public opinion, it's easier to just say you play "Dungeons and Dragons". Thanks to Tom Hanks even my grandmother has heard of that.

If it's a one day thing and it's 2 hours or less one way it's a go. I'm on the road all week anyway so the drive time isn't usually a consideration.

As for shows I go for gaming and shopping.

We're lucky here in Gloucester County. 40 to 50 gamers within 30 minutes. There is always a game somewhere pretty much every weekend.

DM

I'm originally from New York City, relocated to Los Angeles as an adult with my wife & family for work reasons. These two biggest cities in the USA both have large -- at least in American terms -- wargaming communities, but as others have said above, it can be a very niche hobby, so even if there are several wargaming clubs thriving nearby it doesn't mean every active gamer will choose to join. I'm a case in point. I collect armies, build terrain, design scenarios and play games almost exclusively in one period. Nothing against all the other periods, some of which I still have armies for on my shelves, just my own interests turned out this way. I attend conventions to set up large games from my chosen period, but with any free time I have while I'm there I'm happy to play virtually anything.

The longest I've ever driven to bring a game to a con was about 2000 miles -- from Los Angeles to New Orleans, which took me 3 days each way. Since it included 12'x6' of terrain boards there was no alternative to driving. More normal distances are 1 to 5 hours drive each way. The crazy three-day drive was back in 2011 but I'm hoping to do it again next year, if I can finish the lay-out I'm in the midst of building in time. I can enjoy just watching an exciting -- and preferably great-looking -- game, but would much prefer to participate, either by running it or playing in it. Another great thing about attending cons is seeing old friends I've met and stayed in touch with during decades of gaming on both coasts. Overall conventions are a relatively small part of the hobby for me, but they're still important as big momentous "events" for me to plan for and build towards, maybe a bit like the World Cup is for soccer/futbol fans.

As far as wargaming's place in the broader American culture in general or the opinion of the hobby and its practitioners held by American women in particular… our country is so big and our hobby is so small, I'd hazard to say neither really exists beyond some slight variation on better-known "nerd" activities. But in my own experience if you find someone, young or old, male or female, with a real interest in history (not very common here in the USA) there's a good chance they'll be open to giving it a try and possibly becoming a new recruit to the hobby.

I live in a state nearly the size of England/Scotland, with 1/12th the population, while I live in the largest metro area where I know of a dozen or more historical gamers. A fair number of game/hobby stores, all fantasy or sci-fi if they carry anything. I drive once a month or so to game with a couple of nice guys, about 50 miles each way.

In the US I'd suggest that the hobby is driven more by urban populations and the location and number of local universities/colleges. When I lived out in the rural area of northern Wisconsin, I did not play a face to face game for 5 years. Traveled to conventions just to play.

Also agree that the hobby is so small and underground that few Americans have any idea of it existing.

Dan

In the greater Boston, Massachusetts area there are several clubs. Drive time is about 1/2 to 2 hours to reach most. Most of that is interstate so we are covering 50 to 250 miles.
If I mention Wargaming to anyone it is usually answered with either Warhammer or Paint Ball comments.
I shop on line, visit the local stores rarely.
A lot of gaming is done at our homes; most of us have a dedicated room/ space and have 8 foot by 5 foot tables as a minimum. The Club is a once a month event, with several games on the go at once.
I've never quite understood the demonstration game situation.
Love you blog by the way, thanks for the work!

Thanks guys, I think I'm getting a much better insight into gaming in the US. It's a little different to the stereotype.

War gaming over here is generally known about by most. That doesn't mean to say that it's understood. The Warhammer / Games Workshop thing is the usual impression people have, well that and 'geeky'; most guys have had the conversation, you know, the one that starts with "Darling I have a dark secret."

….from Los Angeles to New Orleans, which took me 3 days each way.

Don't know about the wargames aspect but I'd love to do that drive – preferably in a Winnebago (spelling?). There's something fascinating about the middle bits of the US (the "flyover parts") and a coast-to-coast road trip would be the way to experience it.

As regards travelling to games, I do a 200 mile round trip 2 or 3 times a year for a day's gaming but usually, it's 7.5 minutes to a pub in town where we have the best weekend games.

I guess that the roads in between cities in the US are less crowded than the motorways here. To do long distances, you need to use the motorways and there's a darned good chance you'll encounter major hold-ups on any trip so it's somewhat off-putting.

Doug

I guess that the roads in between cities in the US are less crowded than the motorways here.

I live in Las Vegas and on Fridays you can see headlights as far as the eye can see coming in for the weekend from California and on Sunday it's taillights.
There are plenty of gamers here but in my experience they tend to be overly picky and it is hard to find a stable historical group. The GW crowd and collectible card game crowd rule the hobby stores here.

Doug, please don't get the wrong idea! As Bashytubits hints at above, traffic between major metropolitan areas here in the USA can be as bad as anywhere else on earth, and several of our cities -- including Los Angeles, New York, Houston and Chicago -- can sometimes give even Mexico City or Moscow a run for their money in terms of pure traffic hell.

A few years ago when our largest historical miniatures convention moved 170 miles South from Pensylvania to Virginia, some gamers who lived closer to the northern location spent months voicing serious displeasure at having to make the longer drive.

Most American gamers do drive to conventions, but some take commuter trains or buses, or even fly. I know there are at least a couple of other California residents here on TMP who fly across the country to attend Historicon on the East Coast almost every Summer. When I drove to New Orleans a local gaming buddy of mine here in Los Angeles flew in with my teenage son to join me for the fun of the convention itself, minus the six day roundtrip transit time, and there were other gamers at that con who had flown in from New England in the North and Colorado out West. But if you're bringing six 6'x2' terrain boards, a bunch of tabletop terrain pieces, two opposing armies, etc., etc., unless you're hooked up with Air Transport Command you pretty much have to drive!

But if you're bringing six 6'x2' terrain boards, a bunch of tabletop terrain pieces, two opposing armies, etc., etc., unless you're hooked up with Air Transport Command you pretty much have to drive!

Sounds like you should think about developing an Air Portable Wargame!

In the American Navy (at least in my rate) a lot of people play Warhammer and 40k. Thats how I got into it for the most part, as before I joined I did not have the money for armies, and friends in my division played 40k.

Most of my gaming is done at shops, with two in my city doing the majority of it, at least for me. Only one has a historicals following though, which is a shame.

A lot of my gaming is done with friends in our homes, tbh.

As far as girls, well, I have a girlfriend and have had many more. Its not really something I bring up on the first date, but not something I hide.

You see a lot of girls in the stores, but most are there for card games like Magic, not for miniatures, though some are there.

While population density is a factor in potential, it depends a lot on culture.

Based on link the Philippines and India should be a hot bed of war games.
And, just to blur the idea, link and evenat a national level link it seems the war game is more exposure/culture driven then population density.

Scroll down on link and I think you see a glimmer of UK/USA population differences. It is not so much spread out as there are many large pockets of people in the USA but an overall less dense geography.

I think he hobby is much more driven in part by the paint versus play or game versus simulation or skirmish versus battle or solo versus social preferences plus the "What is popular in my area" factor. All war games, to paraphrase a politician, are local in my experience.