"the drmmer boz in houghemont?" Topic

Gents,I would like to know Did they survive this battle? And the sapper LeGross?
Were they kia?
thanks greetings serge joe

I believe the drummer survived as he was the only one spared by the garrison when the French broke in at the North Gate. As I understand it, Le Gros was the lieutenant who led the attack and had grabbed a sapeur's axe rather than him being a sapeur himself. He was killed along with the rest of the attackers (apart from the drummer).

Helas ,
Pity a brave man and boy greetings serge joe

The story is surely apocryphal. We have no way of knowing how many really broke in and how often and through which routes. Drummers were not "boys" in reality and were very unlikely to have lead a charge of what were actually Light Infantry. Drummers of Light Infantry? Think about it. It is another great story of Waterloo, sparing the drummer boy. It did not happen……..they were killed to a man. Not a prisoner taken (ask any one who has served in a situation like this)

Serge Joe. This time your English is superb in expressing what is really important. "Pity a brave man and boy." They died, if they existed.

You can write in perfectly good English when you want.

Plus, again. you have asked a question that did once baffle me!

You are not an idiot, or a troll, as I once thought. You ask some very interesting questions. Think about how you phrase your questions…they are really good.

With a title like this the real experts will ignore the topic.

"The story is apocrphal" "We have no way of knowing how many really broke in & how often & through which routes" "The died if they existed"

You are kidding aren't you mate??

There are enough first hand & eye witness accounts to fully support what happened. It is known the only penetration of the fortified building during the action was at the north gate, which was insecure until around 12.30pm and only secured at the last minute upon the arrival of French troops.

Legros was a real person, present as known being a sous-lieutenant in the 2/1 legere. We rely on the accounts of participants such as Macdonell, assisted by guard officers, Wyndham, Hervey & gooch, & Sergeants Fraser & McGregor for a better understanding of the incident.

This action, these people & the events as they are understood are, from first hand accounts of the men who participated.

So significant was the struggle to close the gate, Wellington years later nominated Macdonell as the bravest man in England for closing the gate. Such was the importance attached to the action by Britaisn foremost military figure.

As a side, the top beam of the north gate is on display at the Guards Museum.

And, French legere units did have drummers, carried the drum in the field as they operated in the same manor as ligne troops, with commands conveyed using the drum. You are taking the term light infantry too literally.

Perhaps a little more time on the books for Mr Deadhead & a little less time patronising poor old serge joe.

The only 'account' to make mention of a French drummer boy at Hougoumont was that published in 1853 by Frederick Thompson, bookseller of Bedfordshire, being the account of events by Matthew Clay, a former private in the Light Company of the 3rd Foot Guards. The published account was heavily edited, with a great many differences between the published version and the original. (The published version was spiced up to generate interest and sales.) Clay's original handwritten manuscript mentions the drummer boy as part of a later French incursion, which took place around 2:30 p.m. at the west gate, which was repelled by Grenadiers from the 1st Battalion 2nd Nassau-Usingen, and members of the 3rd Foot Guards Light Company under Captain John Elrington. This event has subsequently become mixed with the famous (or should that be infamous) episode known as 'the closing of the gates'. Despite having spent the last twenty years searching for material from those who were present at Hougoumont, I have been unable to trace a contemporary account of events which describes the incursion at the north gate in the manner you outline. Unfortunately, the distortion of events started in several Regimental Histories, particularly that by Sir William Fraser published in 1934, entitled: The History of the Scots Guards. For example, the account of Waterloo by Colour Sergeant Bruce McGregor (which has never been published) confirms that he was leading a detachment down from the heights when the attack at the north gate took place. Of course, most information relating to the French characters involved in the incursion, including sous-lieutenant Legros (who was a real person), has been dervied from the chapter Victor Hugo wrote on Waterloo in his fictional epic: Les Misérables. The contemporary French accounts of the incursion at the north gate suggest that it was actually another party responsible for leading the attack.

John

dearSirs,
To my opinion So what age is a boy in this era?
and up you wil be a teenager?So the legere had no drummers
So what line unit he was from?
The best to you all

So There was a north gate a south as well? best to all

Sorry I was not clearer. Everyone agrees there was at least one break in through the North Gate. There may well have been two and there is much evidence of an entry through the small West door.The South gate seemed inviolate.

Serge Joe is asking about drummers at HGMT, so my comment about aprocryphal related to the tale of a youth with a drum being spared and that only. You cannot miss the closing of the gates, esp if you go to Edinburgh regularly! Must admit I did think Lights did not use drums though! Thanks for that…..learnt summat there!

John Franklin's comment above is quite fascinating and casts some very new light on the whole issue.

I honestly do not think I am being patronising in suggesting to Serge Joe that a little more preparation in his topic titles would produce better responses. Again, he has raised a great topic and some important new information, despite a cryptic title.

Deadhead, Although Légère and ligne had different titles, they were organised exactly the same, so in both line and light all companies had drummers (normally 2 per comp.) except for line or light voltigeur companies, these had bugles (or some similar instrument) The drummer "boy" is indeed a myth as far as I can tell, drummers were not younger than ordinary soldiers normally, of course the myth is enlivened by the Waterloo movie showing very young drummer boys.

Of course! Now I understand and thanks indeed!

I have checked every source and found loads of images of French Legere drummers. But, thought I, these figures blowing horns, bit like our Light Inf buglers. Where were they?

It was the light companies, not the regts that did not have drummers. So the light company of a French Light Inf regiment had none………….well, you can get to 61 years of age and still learn that something that you just "knew" for decades….is totally wrong!

Drummer boys also have much to do with romanticised Victorian artwork, reflecting much later military practice.

Thanks for defending my odd questions now and than
But i never told someone i was without mistakes
Frans legere units had wel drummers, droeg de trommel in het veld als ze bediend in hetzelfde landhuis als ligne troepen, met commando's overgebracht met behulp van de trommel. U neemt de term lichte infanterie te letterlijk.

Misschien een beetje meer tijd op de boeken voor de heer Deadhead & een beetje minder tijd greeting serge joe

I can order a beer in Dutch, but beyond that……

I can only say that your "odd" questions have opened some really interesting threads. There are some real experts in this forum, still , who are prepared to contribute to questions like this, with responses that are of historical significance!

I have now learnt. Every French unit had drummers, it was the Light Company in that unit that did not. Whether a Legere or Ligne Regt!

John, that's interesting about CS Bruce McGregor – I don't think I've seen his account before – can I ask what his account says? Any good details?

I've looked at my database and, aside from the usual enlistment details etc, I have some notes saying he aided in barring the door at Hougemont and "being very strong was of much service in the gallant defence of that farmhouse." but I don't know where I've got that quote from. My (badly sourced!) notes also mention that he shot dead a cuirassier and rode into the courtyard on the Frenchman's horse. Is this from the account you mention?

All the best

@Lord Hill

You took the information on Bruce McGregor (his regimental service record, enlistment details and pension documents conflict with regards to his name – which could have been Brice – but I settled on Bruce because this is on his later documents) from the article written by the then Adjutant of the Scots Guards, J.M. Gow. This appeared in the Household Brigade Magazine in 1965, to coincide with the 150th Anniversary. I had the very good fortune to befriend General Sir Michael Gow, as he later became, and he shared several of his sources with me on visits to his house in Edinburgh.

Of course, the sergeant responsible for riding (bringing) a Frenchman's horse into the courtyrad was actually Sergeant Ralph Fraser. He received a medal from the regiment for his gallant conduct in confronting the officer commanding the French, and unseating him. The officer was Colonel Cubières of the 1er Léger. For the record, Fraser actually served within No. 3 Company (not the Light Company).

McGregor's short account was written for a newspaper many years after events, and so elements cannot really be trusted. He does mention the incursion at the north gate, and the fact that he was engaged in bringing reinforcements down from the heights at the time. He mentions shooting a Cuirassier, but I'm not sure whether this is entirely accurate. (Personally, I feel that he may have confused a Cuirassier with a Dragoon, and Waterloo with Quatre Bras.)

I'm not in a position to post the account in full, as it forms part of a new book I'm writing for Fonthill Media on the events at Hougoumont. But the only other point McGregor makes which I found useful is a comment about the lack of ammunition from shortly after the 'closing of the gates'. This corroborates another source at Hougoumont, who states that he was sent to secure supplies of ammunition from 1 o'clock. (This letter was written by Ensign George Standen only a few days after the battle.) I hope this helps.

John

Thanks John, that's very interesting.
I have Brice/Bruce McGregor/MacGregor as from Argylshire, enlisted 1799, disharged 1821 with pension, later appointed Yeoman of the Guard, died 1846. Maybe I got this from the Household Magazine?

But then the PRO at Kew has a record which doesn't tally – born Glasgow (Lanarkshire), enlisted 1800 discharged 1823 aged 40.

I have to say, through all my Waterloo men research, I have found the Guards by far the most difficult – I've got some interesting stuff from the wonderful archives on Birdcage Walk (I know you've spent many an day there too) but I don't envy anyone specialising in those regiments – so much stuff is missing (blame the Luftwaffe) and I find their unique way of keeping their records at that time, their ledgers and paybooks etc, much more difficult to make sense of than all the other regiments. So good luck with the book!

If you ever need anybody looked up quickly, please fire away – I'm always very happy to offer up what I have on any individuals.

Thanks Lord Hill, I appreciate your kind offer. Here's a little more on Colour Sergeant Bruce McGregor:

Colour Sergeant Bruce McGregor: Born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, 24th June 1782. Enlisted at Edinburgh 25th June 1800. Campaigns: Walcheren, Bergen-op-Zoom, Quatre Bras and Waterloo. Promoted Corporal 16th March 1803, Sergeant 23rd October 1806, Pay Sergeant 10th April 1811. Colour Sergeant 1813 (no date listed in regimental records, but no doubt among the first group of sergeants appointed to the rank). Discharged 20th Jan 1823 aged 40 yrs. Rank on discharge: 1st Drill Sergeant. Cause of Discharge: Being worn out. Conduct on discharge stated as Good. Served as Yeoman of the Guard. Died 4th December 1846†.

The Times 11th Dec 1846, page 3 issue 19417, col F

‘Demise of a Veteran Highlander. – Died on Friday evening at his residence the Foot Guards' Suttling House, Whitehall, Mr Bruce McGregor, in the 65th year of his life. Formerly of the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards. He was a native of Argyleshire and enlisted at Glasgow into the 3rd Guards in the year 1799, and went through the chief actions of the Peninsular War, under the Duke of Wellington. At Walcheren he was one of those unfortunates who caught fever and was carried in a sheet from the sick ward to the dead-house, and put into a shell. The nurse coming down a few minutes after found McGregor sitting up in his temporary coffin; he by good nursing and a strong constitution soon recovered. At Waterloo he was Sergeant-major, and assisted Colonel Ure and Lieutenant- General Sir James Macdonnell, of the Coldstream Guards, in barring the door at Hugoumont, and being a man of great bodily strength, he was much use in keeping the enemy out of the house. He was also singly attacked by a French Cuirassier, who struck at McGregor with his sword. The cut was parried and McGregor shot the Cuirassier dead on the spot and rode into the square on the horse of the vanquished Frenchman; McGregor cut the eagles from the saddle-cloth of the Cuirassier in remembrance of the event. In 1821 he was discharged from the Guards, receiving a handsome pension and for his long service and good conduct the field officers of the brigade of Guards appointed him keeper of the Foot Guards Suttling-house. George IV afterwards appointed him a Yeoman of the Guard at St James's. His hand was always open to the widow and fatherless, and he was a liberal subscriber to many institutions in his native country, and to several in London. Deceased, we believe, has left a sum not less than 15,000l, to his only son. He was also known to most of our townsmen who had occasion to visit London, to whom he was always ready to give a hearty reception.' – Glasgow Chronicle.

Lots of errors in the article (and as mentioned, it was Fraser who 'rode' the Frenchman's horse into the courtyard). But some little-known facts which also add to our understanding of the man.

John