"Dealer Area versus Wally's Basement.. Why overlap at all?" Topic

IMHO this is starting to get beat to death…

Look guys--

In a way this is getting as absurd as the place we work in. You know what I'm saying. Someone does something stupid like wear cut-off jeans and flip-flops in the metal stamping and grinding area and soon there is a huge expansive dress code for everyone rather than someone just saying "Hey Snodgrass! Go home and put on decent clothes for the work environment!" It's the same in war games. One guy pulls a cheesy move and all of a sudden there's 20 pages of rules to prevent him from doing that rather than saying "Hey Yabatz, we don't play it that way here!"

If you dealers know of a guy who is a dealer who games the system by taking a flea market table, just tell me who it is at sigurd@eclipse.net, and I'll never walk up to that guys table again. If you know someone who's ripping you off and selling recasts, say so. I won't patronize them.

Double G.

Please understand I am not ADVOCATING dealers dropping out. I am simply saying that if they feel they aren't being treated fairly, since the conventions depend on their table rents then they have the power of the purse and can use it. We started "The Weekend" only as a small convention for friends because we got too little socializing time at the bigf conventions. We didn't start it as a no-dealer show, or mean't to. We're just not big enough and we'd rather have the dealers who come, who are our friends, play and have a good time. It's not a formula for ever convention, nor would we want it to be. Historicon, Cold Wars, and Fall-In! and others of that model rely on the three legs of games, flea-market and dealers, and they are great. We just can't do it.

So I still can't see where the dealers gripe is.

PS I like the wines at the Mt. Hope Winery and I will be buying a case of them every time I come, which will forever be lost to the dealers and Fleas.

Otto,
As far as the weekend event you run; again, I wish you the best with it, sounds like a fun event, pure gaming at it's finest. Reminds me a bit of the local con we have up here, HAVOC, three days of gaming with a smattering of dealers, the majority of whom are there to game. It's a nice local con run by and attended by a great group of guys, I wouldn't miss it for the world.

And LVG is right; this horse has been beaten beyond recognition, it's really time to put this thread to bed.

It was started with the best of intentions, but it jumped the shark pretty much like I thought it would, much like Coke vs Pepsi, Crips vs Bloods, North vs South, Hatfields vs McCoys, IE, it will NEVER, as in EVER, be resolved to the point where everyone is happy.

Unbelievable.

I do have to say one thing here beyond all the agee-bagees we've had.

When I come to a convention the first thing I make a bee-line for is the dealer area. I'm invariably there with the panting, slavering crowd when the doors open.

It takes me exactly 20 minutes to get through it, and decide what I want to purchase. That takes another 10 minutes. After that-- I'm done. I'm not going to buy one more mini or game the whole convention. I've seen it all, In fact, I've seen it all for the past 10 years. There's not much new in the dealer hall. After that it's off to socializing and game.

It takes me at least an hour and a half to get through the flea-market because there's so much to see and look over and you never know what you will find. There's the banter and bargaining and the "Oooh lookie dat!" of the -- well flea-market. The flea market is entertainment.

Otto,
IMO, if it helps you understand the arguing; dealers are trying to protect their profits, flea market sellers are as well.

That's REALLY what this is all about; two groups of sellers trying to keep their heads above water.

Or to put it another way; much like Crapgame from Kelly's Heroes, some people only come out of the ground when they smell a profit.

I hope this makes sense to you.

I actually want to add…
YES!!! being in the dealer hall is the best place to be IMHO!!! The thing is, I am not sure how it all works out, but I *think* to be in the dealer hall you have to be able to produce business documents.

My story is short and sweet…
I always sold in the flea…
I started working for OGP…. and woudl sell in the flea for him…
I was told I was now a "business" and couldn't be in the flea any more… I was stuck as it took a while for Vladimir to get me the business documents, so I coudl be in the flea for my stuff, but couldn't get into the dealer hall until I had said docs…
I finally get them, am in the dealer area for many shows and then never really recovered the inventory from selling…
I wound up back in the flea with personal stuff anfd OGP is really an online thing now.

Point: WB folks cannot just try and get into the dealer hall form what I know.. I htought they needed a dealer license???? What do I know though…. I have a vendor hall manager to ensure this for me.

Coke? Pepsi? Never really liked either of ‘em. Now, Dr. Pepper, that's a refreshing drink.

….. To be fair, we need to lay out a little history. Back in the "glory days" for dealers at Lancaster, there was a two year (IIRC) waiting list for table space in the dealer area. Certain dealers had "booths" the size of small apartments (Old Glory, Last Square for example), and the small people were essentially locked out. Maybe this was just the luck of the draw year after year after year, or maybe the big dealers were pressuring HMGS to protect their lucrative situation by restricting competition. Can't say which it was, although I have my suspicions, knowing what I know about the way business often gets done in the real world. Whatever the actual cause of the situation, I'm betting that many of those locked out small dealers went guerilla and infiltrated their way into the Flea Markets.

B

Dear Blutarski

That's a fable. The waiting list at its highest consisted of FOUR dealers. Tell me space couldn't have been made for four dealers.

Dear List

I hear a lot of people saying we're beating a dead horse. Well this is the fourth time around for this topic just here on TMP so apparently the horse is very good at playing dead but is not really dead! (He's feeling better!)

Dear Double G

I've know that all along. It's perfectly understandable. But if what you say is true then both sides are under the mistaken impression that getting rid of the other guy (and the Stolfuss Canning Co., and Mount Hope Winery) is going to increase their profits.

Otto

One point for the dead horse to listen to.

As I said, I can stand on the balcony above the dealer hall and scan the place and know exactly who I'm going to. Not only have the dealers not changed (except for being fewer) but the displays and lay out hasn't changed either. Might try livening things up.

Since about a quarter of the dealer hall is open and you could hold a square dance there at cold Wars and Fall-in. Why not put games there. At least that would bring people in. I'm sure that the dealers would like it that the players could go and buy from them after getting all hot and buttered in a game!

So at FI, since the balcony was empty, why not place some of the FM there, and use some of the empty room in the tennis barn as well? Keeps all the people shopping in one location.

Not sure how the balcony is needed/used at CW, but maybe then too.

Run free flea markets in designated areas at night. See how it goes. The free Sunday FMs seem to be getting bigger each year.

HMGS would benefit from a command center set up at each of their cons. The CDs and Deputy CDs could operate from there. It would be a place to find them/leave messages. Same for the Events Manager. Place a few staff there to assist them in manageing the cons.

Put the painting competition there as well. It was nice to see it finally moved to the lobby of the Distlefink this year. Lighting was awful though.

Ask the Host to use something brighter than 40 watt bulbs too. Some of the side rooms are ridiculously dark. Some of the best looking games were run in something akin to a dungeon. Maybe reshuffle some of those games to the Lampeter room and ditch the Mordor mood lighting side rooms.

Years ago a CD wanted to put more games into the Lampeter as the lighting in there was better. It is. Cooler too.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is one definition of… well, you know. :-)

HG,
Like these suggestions…

One downside is that our only weekend exercise goes out the window.

TRU

Really? You don't get enough exercise from all the other steps in the Host? :-)

Overheard at the Host: "This place has more steps than a Lord of the Rings movie."

HG,
As far as putting the flea market inside the dealer hall at Fall In and/or Cold Wars; that's all well and good, but flea market sellers coming in and out of the rear and side entrances to the dealer hall is a disaster waiting to happen.

Trying to cart all that merchandise in and out with attendees roaming the aisles will be messy.

Leave the fleas over in the hotel.

Agreed.

Can I sell jewelry?

Only if its your own from your personal collection.

Probably right Double G. Best left alone then. :-)

I've seen a few vendors actually set up on the balcony at a few shows. Another thought is the administrative nightmare of running two FM locations. Where do you go to check in as a seller? How many volunteers required for two locations?

Thanks to a long holiday weekend and some bad weather, I got a chance to catch up on my TMP reading, including this topic.

Midway through the topic, I realized that the discussion reminded me of a typical commercial arbitration process, with Double G and jpipes serving as "counsel" for their respective sides. (If you follow the NFL, NBA or MLB or have any experience with magistrates or special masters, you will recognize what I'm talking about.) Depending on the circumstances, arbitrators can make binding or non-binding decisions or make recommendations to a final decision maker (like a judge or a commissioner).

I looked at the program schedule for Fall In. If I were the arbitrator in this case, my recommendations to Dan as Convention Director ("CD") regarding changes to the current system would be as follows:

1) Leave Saturday the way it is. Most of the one day attendance is on Saturday. Starting the flea market later on Saturday will probably result in some people staying at home.

2) Move the Friday day session (2pm--5pm) of the flea market to 7pm--10pm. This would give the Vendor Hall a monopoly on buying and selling hours during the day on Friday (Noon--6pm). (If the Vendors want longer (or shorter) hours, they can take it up with the CD, Vendor Hall Manager and HMGS.) During the day, the flea market space can be used for open gaming, which can pick up again in the same space at 10pm.

3) Leave Sunday the way it is.

Now, here is where things get interesting, and maybe a bit controversial:

4) Offer a Thursday night flea market session from 7pm--10pm for early arrivals. This can either be a free session, like Sunday, or, if there is enough demand for tables, it could grow into a paid for session. (In point of fact, there's nothing right now to really stop early arrivals from spreading their stuff out on tables on Thursday night anyway.) This change would make it a formal part of the convention schedule.

5) Lastly, consider expanding the flea market by another row of tables. Right now, the FM is at 85 tables (84 sellers plus one admin table per session.) If you walk through the tournament area (or sit at a flea market table with a view of the tourney area), you can't help but notice that almost every other table in the tournament area is empty. Players in that part of the convention have a lot of "elbow room." Taking some of the unused and unproductive space and turning it into revenue generating space warrants consideration.

In making these recommendations, I adopted the rule that any change had to be revenue neutral to HMGS, i.e., you can't ask a convention director to consider a change that would cost the convention money. 84 tables at $20 USD/session for 3 sessions adds up to real money for HMGS. (Even if a CD agreed to drop a flea market session, I'm sure the HMGS Treasurer and the rest of the HMGS BOD would have something to say about it.) Thus, dropping a flea market session was a non-starter, but moving one session to the evening was worth consideration.

In summary, here's how the changes work out for each interested party:

--the Vendors get all day Friday to themselves. They also get to shop in the FM (if they wish) on Thursday and Friday nights.

--the flea market keeps all three paid sessions, with the possibility of an extra Thursday night session and more table space if the FM area is expanded through better table management in the Hall.

--Shoppers get more sessions to walk through, including a Friday schedule with no conflicts between the Vendor Hall and the flea market.

--HMGS keeps the same FM revenue it has now, with the potential for growth in the future.

That's it, Dan. Take as much (or as little) as you want from the above. (The same plan works for Cold Wars, but Frank seems to be too smart to get involved in this debate.) Historicon has a different set up, so it was outside of my consideration.

I welcome any comments.

I'm fine with all of that, including the Thursday night session, just not sure how well attended with few attendees on site yet and dealers in the dealer hall unloading and setting up.

Your idea of moving the Friday session to Friday night is called a compromise, a term my counterpart in your arbitration scenario hasn't clue one about; good luck convincing him to go along with it, he wants to add another flea market session, not move one to a nighttime session………

Beat to death!!!

Thanks for the feedback, Double G.

I know who Jason is. (I've bought stuff from him before.) He can, and I'm sure will, speak for himself if he wants to. Not that he (or anyone else except for HMGS) gets to decide on how the FM will be run.

The goal is to create as much of a win--win--win situation as possible for Vendors, FM buyers and sellers and HMGS.

Look at it like buying/leasing a car. Not everyone can afford a new Lexus. Some have to shop for used Toyotas. This hobby is the same way. Some can only afford to participate at the FM level when it comes to their primary source of gaming supplies. (Others can afford a Jaguar, but prefer to look for bargains or "fix 'er uppers" in the used car lot.) The hope is that everyone will be able to move up and spend more, but it doesn't always work out that way.

We'll see.

Very well though out, 47. We will see what Dan the CD says. My additional thoughts, without dragging this out too much

I personally doubt a Thursday night flea market will work at all… Not enough people there. And of course I like the Friday proposal … Sort of what I had proposed originally

I am curious, personally, about the Day travelers… There seems to be some sort of consensus that they would not come at all if there were no flea market on Saturday – daytime. Where does this philosophy come from? To me, it seems that they would be encouraged to stay longer, if they are truly only there to buy stuff, if they could buy stuff in the daytime (at the dealer hall) and in the evening (at the flea market). And to make the flea market better, make it bigger, I think there should be a lot more than 84 tables… As many have pointed out, there is a LOT of unused space in the Lampeter after 6 pm. The convention could be truly be revenue neutral on Saturday if they went to 168 tables!

Just Sayin…

Daniel

The issue with day trippers as I understand it having spoken with many of them is that they drive to the show in the early morning and drive back home that night. Driving home at 6:30pm is a lot different than driving home at 9-10pm. The assumption is that moving a session that day to the evening would therefore be likely to force a lot of those people to not attend. Day trippers are not likely to want to get home at 2am-3am.

Also after the flea market is over Sat at 4-5pm a lot of the money made goes back over to the dealer hall to get spent. If you limit flea market sellers to their last session being after the dealer hall closes the money they make will most certainly not get back to the dealers.

In a Saturday morning session/night session arrangement flea market sellers would have to set up and tear down/move their stuff twice which besides being disruptive for some might be physically impossible or very difficult. The open gaming Sat night in the area of Wally's Basement is also really vibrant and taking that away might be a bummer as well.

I'm still all for adding a night session and leaving the other sessions as is, but if there is a push in shifting a session to the evening 47Ronin's suggestions seem like the best (moving Fri afternoon session to Fri evening).

The premise of this seems to be that a dollar spent in the flea market actually belongs to the dealers. I am sorry that's just wrong on both ends. It is win, win as is.

Lots to think about and some good thought 47. I have a hard road ahead of me as I am sure no matter how I do it, some others will be unhappy.

Sorry for the long wait…. I got sick Monday night (before Thanksgiving) and am just now getitng back on the horse… I was miserable and offline for a whole week.. no gaming, no painting, no video games and leats of all.. no hobby or movie related stuff…. I missed turkey day completely as the fam went to SC and I wa sleft at home… I did manage to crawl out and do soem minor visiting.. and I am thankful for it. Being sick really stinks.