"Dealer Area versus Wally's Basement.. Why overlap at all?" Topic

Does it look like a shortage of dealers at Fall In? Maybe some but really..On Military Matters
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Onomarchos

…….it would kill open gaming, etc, etc, etc. I honestly cannot believe how selfish people are! Every one of those items mentioned concerns an individual's attitudes, and not what is best for the convention as a whole.

People will take your comments a little bit more seriously if you'd dispense with the hyperbole. No one said anything about "killing" open gaming. If you ever set foot into the Lampeter room at night, you would see that it is filled with "open gaming". Who are you going to remove for your flea market?

Here are the facts: The number of dealers is declining. One of the reasons mentioned for the decline is the dearth of customers who are at the flea market while it (Wally's) is open (2/3rds of the time, by the way….), and not at the dealer area.

Yes the numbers of dealers are in decline. That is a fact. That reflects economic pressures on them showing up at a convention in person, instead of concentrating on their internet sales. What you cannot prove is that every dollar spent in WB is a dollar taken out of the pocket of a dealer. Make the case that this exists before you suggest a remedy.

This seems to get raised every couple of years. It's not broken and there is no reason to fix it. That said the odd individual or two who violates the rules should be talked too, as this is not fair to the dealers.
If the organization wants to be open a third session at night great.

I can't make a direct correlation between the health of the flea market and the decline in dealer attendance.

What BTC and what Bowman said make more sense, at least from what dealers have told me. Dealer costs were increased to cover the higher expenses of VFCC and FCC. Only the dealers can say if those increases have been covered by additional sales at those facilities, and you'd have to canvas them all.

New ideas aren't bad ideas either. As one of the pick up games in the FM area Saturday night, there were plenty of tables for both. HMGS could try it (again) – perhaps using the Sunday morning free FM as a model to see how it goes. If successful they could always start to charge later, if they find the staff for it. But I would not advocate shutting down the other FMs if they do try it.

Dan,
Thanks for starting this thread.

The opinions expressed here are interesting.

Pretty much spot on to what I expected.

Again, thanks.

Agreed.

So, can we have a con without the Dealer Hall-?

Take away the revenue generated by Dealer Fees (i.e., Table Space) and tell me what the day/weekend pass would cost-?

So, can we have a con without the Dealer Hall-?

I must be reading the wrong thread. Who has said anything remotely like that?

No one. My point is that HMGS needs the revenue generated by selling space in the Dealer Hall to offset the price of admission.

Again: I think it's only fair that Dealers should not have to compete with the FM-at least not for the amount of time they do now.

Dealers have expenses: van or truck rental, gas, table costs, hotel and food, employees, etc., all of which have to be made up before they get to zero and then start making a (gross) profit.

I believe the two operations can coexist with a modification of the times as I've stated before.

Starting to sound a little like a broken record here.

>I think it's only fair that Dealers should not have to compete with the FM-at least not for the amount of time they do now.

The fact is no one has shown that they do, unless you mean because they are scheduled during some of the same time. Most of the gaming at Fall In and Cold Wars and Hcon takes place while the dealer hall is open too. Should we curtail that to avoid infringing on the dealer area?

I am 100% in support of the dealers. I spend as much of my money with them as I can. I appreciate what they do for our hobby. But someone said earlier since when did the event become about the dealers. I don't agree with that 100% but it has serious merit. The convention is about the GAMERS. Dealers are one facet of the event. I realize they pay a lot to attend the convention. But so do each of the members who attend. 1500 people paying $25 USD or more each to attend is a lot of money. Add another $5,000 USD-$7000 generated from selling WB tables and you have a lot of money. Does anyone want the dealer hall to shrink or disappear? NO. But no one has shown that there is a link between the flea market and the dealer hall and reduced sales. Not one shred of evidence any more than having games scheduled at the same time does the same. Saying "the dealer hall is smaller" and "the dealer hall is open during some of the same time as the flea market" does not mean the two are related.

Maybe the solution is for the dealers to pull out of Cold Wars, Historicon and Fall In and run a one day shopping event a couple of times a year; think Salute.

Rent a hall, have the dealers set up on Friday, sell on Saturday and break down Saturday night/Sunday and then head home.

Invite manufacturers to come, have kick ass demo games, the whole nine yards like the Brits do, Salute looks like a rock solid event.

Run it once in the Spring, once in the Fall.

Then you fellas can have your Cold Wars, Historicon and
Fall In, play all the games you want, run all the flea markets you want, have a ball.

I'm sure you could do it without the dealers and I'm sure the attendees wouldn't have a problem paying 100.00 to 150.00 each to game to their hearts content all weekend long.

Because afterall, the conventions are for the gamers, not the dealers.

Lets give it a whirl and see how it shakes out, shall we?

• First, my apologies for not being able to find the basic formatting instructions. New to TMP and still figuring it out.
• I'd like to echo what several other folks have already said about the Dealer Hall and Wally's Basement not being in too much direct competition and offer a couple of other thoughts as well.
• I'll also say up front as a pretty regular Wally's Basement denizen (when I'm in the country) that dropping the day time flea market sessions is a VERY bad idea in my humble opinion.
• In business one of the things retailers seek is peak customer traffic periods/contact opportunities. I know this from working site location research over a period of about eight years for retailers ranging from one of the two largest big box home improvement chains, to grocery, restaurant, and all kinds of specialty retailers like book sellers, sporting goods places and computer stores. Based on my very informal observations over about ten years of coming to HMGS events on and off, I'd suggest the peak traffic times for potential buying customers consists of about 11-6 on Friday and 10-4 on Saturday. Perhaps someone from the HMGS staff could provide attendance numbers by day for reference. Since Vender Hall and Flea Market/WB sellers rely on the same core customer base for sales (more below), anything outside these hours may or may not prove productive/profitable. I've done flea market sessions on Friday AM & PM and Saturday AM & PM. Most often, the best sessions for me are Fri PM and Sat AM. Didn't do the one Fri Night session at Historicon, so I can't comment directly on that idea.
• About that core customer base. In most retail sales potential/analysis models Dealers and Flea Marketeers would be modeled as competing for the same available dollars, but given the niche nature of our hobby, and the fact that both Dealers and Flea Marketeers are cross shopping each other's "stores", that model doesn't fully apply to this situation. Sure, some purchases in the Flea Market will result in a non-purchase in the Dealer Hall, but the opposite is also true. Of greater interest/importance is how Flea Marketeers spend the money they accrue during their sessions. I can say without doubt from my personal experience I've spent money in the Dealer Hall at every HMGS show I've run a flea market table at that I would not have spent otherwise purely because I had the money in my pocket and easy access to the dealers and their products. I've also picked up a little in the flea market pretty much every time that I couldn't pick up anywhere else because the stuff is long out of production.
• The most obvious thing impacting dealer sales from my perspective is the way on-line retailing has changed how we all buy hobby stuff (and just about everything else). Since most of the dealers I've encountered in the Dealer Hall have some sort of web presence, this shouldn't be news to anyone. In days gone by, part of the appeal of going to a con was to take advantage of the "show only" discounts offered by the dealers and manufacturers. My observation over the past ten years of going to HMGS events is most dealers don't offer anything earth shattering in the way of discounts. Let's face it, anything less than a 20% discount isn't all that attractive anymore, particularly with many retailers and manufacturers offering "free" shipping. For better or worse, we're all conditioned to expect discounts, even though in many cases those discounts are applied to artificially inflated prices that "allow" for the discounts within a normal business model for profit margins.
• I understand our dealers pay a significant amount to come to the cons and support our hobby. I'm appreciative of that and like others I make an earnest effort to spend money with multiple dealers at each event I attend, and at my Friendly Local Game Stores between cons. Like everyone else, I also have what seems like a decreasing amount of disposable income, so the tension of getting the best price possible plays into the equation too, but I'm willing to spend a little more for something I can touch and feel before paying, so I accept I won't always get the best deal possible on things. Dealers also need to understand the tension of speaking with "Household 6" regarding what she is certain is a pile of stuff more than capable of sustaining a brick and mortar store start up, and my efforts to reduce said strategic stockpile. Of course, we also have an uneasy truce revolving around the sanctity of "once hobby money, always hobby money", hence my desire to reinvest at the earliest opportunity. :)
• Blutarski hits the nail on the head on several fronts from my perspective. I've seen stuff from my flea market table pop up in the same session at a higher price on at least three other sellers' tables. Good for those that felt they could make a little more money. I got the price I was comfortable with, so potentially two wins in one day. The observations about aging population and rising prices without a comparable rise in disposable income are also dead on.
• In the end, I firmly believe killing/curtailing flea market sessions during prime customer traffic hours is not the right answer. Offering an evening flea market session or, here's a radical thought, extending Dealer Hall hours until something like 9 or 11 pm on Friday night, might be an alternative, but either will need a couple of iterations per convention event to get a sense for whether they might work to most people's satisfaction or not.
• 
  

Really now DG…Based on the list above I see no shortage of dealers at Fall In.
Throwing in a bit of sarcasm doesn't help your position.
Ken, well thought out….

I don't think he was being sarcastic.

Jpipes:

"The fact is no one has shown that they do, unless you mean because they are scheduled during some of the same time."

That's exactly what I mean. And lay off the sarcasm ('broken record').

Most of the gaming at Fall In and Cold Wars and Hcon takes place while the dealer hall is open too. Should we curtail that to avoid infringing on the dealer area?

Really-you extrapolated that from what I said-?

LVG; no sarcasm on my part.

The Brits do it the right way with Salute.

So do toy soldier shows, model railroading shows and model kit/figure shows here in the US; they are one day selling events.

As you and others have pointed out, there is gaming and flea marketing to be done during the day, who has time to go to the dealer hall too? You can play in two games a day for two days; I'd say 150.00, or roughly forty bucks a game seems about right.

Embrace the concept LVG.

Embrace it.

"Anything less than a 20% discount isn't that attractive anymore"……….

LESS than 20%?

You do realize the vast majority of dealers in the hall are retailers, several are US importers for various UK lines.

Hate to tell you what standard retail discount is from manufacturers/wholesalers to dealers, ie, retailers; anyone offering 20% OR MORE who's a retailer factoring convention expenses in is losing money in that scenario.

LESS than 20%; wow.

I mean, just wow.

• Double G,
• 
  
• I do realize most of the dealers in the dealer hall are retailers along with some manufacturers, and I'm familiar with the general discount structure offered by most wholesalers and manufacturers, having spent a fair amount of time researching opening a hobby shop. Granted, discounts vary, but most retailers receive substantially more than 20% off retail on most products. Yes, we live in a niche market, so undoubtedly some, maybe many, discounts aren't the norm, especially depending on how specialized the merchandise is, but for most mainstream products, retailers are receiving anywhere from 30-50% off retail thru wholesale channels.
• 
  
• As several have said, for better or worse, the hard truth of the matter is that on-line retailing has altered the way most consumers do business. Most people don't expect to pay the full retail price. It's neither good nor bad, it's just the new reality.
• 
  
• I'll say again though that showing a direct link between the overlap of dealer hall and flea market hours and diminished dealer hall sales is difficult if not impossible to prove given the diverse nature of what's sold in the flea market, and the fact that at least some portion of money generated in the flea market is spent in the dealer hall. Assume sixty tables per flea market session, with average sales of $100 USD per table. Both are probably low. Total generated funds per flea market session $6,000. USD LVGs vendor list for Fall In 2014 has 50 dealers. I have no idea what percentage of flea market revenue other than mine is spent in the dealer hall, but even if 100% of the revenue was spent evenly amongst all 50 dealers it would only amount to $120 USD more or less per dealer, probably not enough to make or break any dealer's decision to attend the show. Double or triple the figure and it's probably not enough to sway most dealers. Now factor in the fact that probably only about 50% or less of what's sold in the flea market is stuff retailers currently stock and the divergence from flea market sales impacting let alone killing dealer hall sales is even bigger.
• 
  
• I understand, you don't like the flea market. That doesn't mean the flea market is the cause of declining dealer sales. The more likely culprits are those already mentioned by others: economy, changing gamer demographics, and changing consumer behavior being most relevant and unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.
• 
  
• In the meantime I keep supporting my local stores between cons and spreading money around the dealer hall at cons, with both at least partially funded through selling stuff in the flea market I've accumulated over many years, mostly from local stores. It's also how I cover my expenses associated with attending the cons (gas, hotel, meals, registration fees).
• 
  

But no one has shown that there is a link between the flea market and the dealer hall and reduced sales. Not one shred of evidence any more than having games scheduled at the same time does the same. Saying "the dealer hall is smaller" and "the dealer hall is open during some of the same time as the flea market" does not mean the two are related.

Well said. It's clear that some people can't tell the difference between correlation and causation. Broken records indeed.

As you and others have pointed out, there is gaming and flea marketing to be done during the day, who has time to go to the dealer hall too? You can play in two games a day for two days; I'd say 150.00, or roughly forty bucks a game seems about right………..

Embrace it.

That situation already exists. It's called "The Weekend" . No dealer area. (Some dealers do come, but as gamers). Gaming starts Thursday night and ends with a good bye breakfast on Sunday. We get a lot of gaming in. Cost is free if you stay at the Continental, $10 USD otherwise. The Con is growing.

I've embraced it.

Dear Bowman

Thanks for the kind words on the Weekend. If anyone is interested, just send me a line at sigurd@eclipse.net and I'll send you our 48 page full color After-Action Report/Keepsake booklet which has battle reports on ALL the game we had at the con, including "Frederick the Great invades Candyland", "Conquistadores of Space," SAGA event, Victorian Sci-Fi at Port Arthur, and "Honey I Sacrificed the Kids" ancient game, and many many more.

Otto

Good for you Bowman.

So if this same scenario presented itself at the host and a couple of thousand gamers showed up, the host would just give you all of those function rooms and gaming tables for free then?

Same deal with the FCC; they'd just let you have the place for free all weekend long?

Surely that's not where you're going with this, are you?

Ken, if retailers are receiving anywhere from 30% to 50% off and you're under the impression that no less than 20% off works, under your scenario, a dealer is making 10% to 30%; factor in credit card processing fees, gas, tolls, meals, hotels, employee salaries and table fees, what sort of margin is left?

If a dealer is just trying to recycle cash, then it will work, or if a dealer has a "real job" and is doing these cons for grins and giggles, then it will work.

Anyone trying to earn a living won't be at those margins.

And as far as the flea market, I've said it before, I'll say it again; the issue here is me not liking the flea market.

Prior to becoming a dealer, I dropped a large amount of money in the flea market, picked up some great 20mm WWII, ACW and Napoleonic items, none of which I then "flipped" at the con for a profit as again, I wasn't a dealer back then and even if I was, that's not how I operate.

As a sole proprietor, I cannot leave my booth for a hour four to six times per convention and go over there and shop. I'd love to, but I can't.

It would be nice to have ONE nighttime session so myself and other dealers could shop. Swap out ONE daytime session in it's place and you're in business, I don't see how this is such an issue.

It's been mentioned that another session be eliminated, the Saturday afternoon one; if that happens, it happens, if not, so be it.

If they try it and it's a miserable failure like some of you claim it will be, then go back to the old system, no harm, no foul, life goes on.

This whole concept of the flea market being some sacred cow that can't be messed with is mind boggling to me.

I reiterate my former post. There is no crossover between the dealer area and the flea-market. They deal in completely different things.

Let me express my prejudices at the start. I am 100% on the dealer side. My sympathies are totally with them. The reason is simple. It is the dealers, and especially the dealer-manufacturers, the guys who make their own stuff that keeps this hobby going and bring out new things. No one in the flea market does or CAN or COULD do that. It's all old stuff. So for me whatever the dealers and especially the dealers who make their own new stuff that is important for the hobby. The dealers who are only distributors come right up there too, for they are another conduit to get the stuff in the quantity we want. Let me brag a little. If you are a dealer and I walk up to your booth with a hungry loom your convention is made. i'll spend a thousand at a time if I want to, and the repeat business is constant.

Some dealers however should be in the flea-market. There's one I go to and every year I go up to the booth find something I like and say "Hey I like this box, do you have about six more? (because I buy regiments at a time!) ""No sez he, " that's all I have that's all they sent me." "Cool!" sez I," Can I order them through you?" "No, we can't take orders they prefer you to go to their web site." "Oh," sez I, "Ok, thanks" and I wander over to DPC and buy something else, and they'll ship it to me so I don't have to carry it around. Sorry, that's a flea-market selling off odd-lots in the dealer area.

But beyond that, there is no competition unless you're simply talking about people spending their $$$ in the flea-market rather than in the Dealer hall. Well by that measure you might as well complain about me buying a dozen jars of jams and jellies at the Stolfuss canning company or a case of wine at the Mount Hope Winery, which I did.

How dealers are treated is another issue. I know one dealer who is suffering from a debilitating illness that every three weeks lays him flat. I mean REALLY flat for a week. he wanted to come, wanted to register, but told them of this condition and had the money ready and asked nicely if he got sick and had to pull out, would they give him his money back. They flatly refused. I rather think sonmethign could be done out of simple human decency for a guy who's shown up year after year and run conventions in the past to boot.

But again, the problem has nothing to do with the graying of the hobby or the flea-market. I go to the flea-market, as does everyone I've ever talked to (over 100 so far) for one thing and one thing only. We are all going to get those toys and games that when we were little, we didn't take care of when our moms said to us "Now, take care of it and put it away and keep it neat and you'll have it forever.

And YES! I have the 128 crayon set of Crayola crayons WITH the built-in sharpener that my parents would not buy for me as a kid.

Dear Double G

Actually-- they do. We have a 5,000 sqft ballroom which for 140 room nights we get for free. We get about 90 room nights and the balance means we have to shell out about $500 USD bucks, which we get from donations and so forth, and have enough left over to pay off half of the next year! So yeah-- we do.

Admittedly it's a smaller convention but the quality is superb. Many big-time GM's take part. I mean big-time not in the sense of famous or world beating, but guys who put on big lavish games which are visual treats as well as fun to play. Each year there are four or five completely new games This includes huge tables of fantasy games, huge tables of towns under siege (Alesia) huge tables of the siege of Ticonderoga, alien landscapes and entire universes.

Lots of pick-up games and board games.

Plenty more space if you want to put on a game too.

Dear List

OOPS! Made a mistake. I forgot about $250 USD of that $500 USD is the beer wine and soda we give out free, and piles of munchies.

"I reiterate my former post. There is no crossover between the dealer area and the flea-market. They deal in completely different things."

Disagree with this respectfully. As a prototypical consumer I am looking to get first dibs on things in the FM. So 15 mins before the FM I make a bee line to the Lampeter room clear on the other side of the facility.

After purveying people's wares I then go back to the vendor hall. (Assuming nothing captures my attention along the way)

Repeat at the start of each FM session.

As a consumer and a point of sale professional (visual merchandising/consumer behavior) I can tell you it does have an impact IMHO.
I'm forced to either power shop for 45 mins OR see what I might be missing out on in the FM.
This is MY behavior, but I know there are other consumers just like myself (some close friends).
I know, I have to exchange elbows with them every time to get at the new shiny.

TRU

All I really wanted is customers at 9 am for maybe an hour or 2 on Saturday morning when we open for Historicon. Strange- considering how much time, money, and effort a dealer puts into being present at a venue-I didn't think it was that much to ask. I am not saying I don't want to compete with other things during the entire day. I am not saying anything must go or be cut out. I am not saying it all had to change. I am saying "Can we please have a noticeable(positive) number of customers in the dealer hall when we freaking open(please)"? And I have to wonder if the line of people waiting for the WB to open is not affecting that selfish wish.

Oddly I don't have remotely this problem at Gencon or Origins. Actually the opposite when we open at Gencon….They are breathing heavy from walking as fast as possible to get into my booth. (Please don't start with the apples and oranges comparison of the types of show. All of these are gaming conventions).

Now for some that say they believe the biggest factor that has hurt the dealers attendance is the internet I don't think that is true. The single biggest factor that has helped virtually every vendor in that hall is the internet and without it most of them would not exist at all. I think it would be hard to find many dealers on that list that don't have internet sales as a large part of their annual sales figures. For those vendors that are gone who did not adjust to the internet as it grew in popularity and its virtually endless possibilities- sadly, you will be missed. But those numbers were easily replaced by those dealers in the hall that were created and exist because of the internet.

What I think some people forget is we are in the entertainment industry. The entire reason why shows are able to exist is people enjoy going to them- they are entertained during their attendance. Shopping is a form of entertainment- people enjoy doing it(crazy I know). Yes you can order this stuff online but there is a real entertainment value to some people to go looking around a hall full of interesting things like inspiring games, and items to purchase that has enough appeal that you can get people to travel to it and actually pay money to get in.

The biggest factor that has affected nonessential spending(which is most entertainment) is the economy and all that goes with it. There are simply less disposable/hobby funds in the pockets of every attendee walking in the door. That is not to say no money is walking into that door- I am saying that in total people have less than before 2008.

For those that say the Dealer Hall and WB don't directly compete I would say-Everything that cost an individual money from their pockets when they go on the adventure of attending a show is in direct competition with each other- everything. For the most part there is a dollar amount that is going to be spent at the shows. How that money is allocated is affected by everything the attendee may choose to spend it on. Some of these things HMGS can affect some it cannot.

Would people really come unglued if the dealer hall(which yes does generate a very large amount of income for the entire event) had less sales competition for the almighty dollar when it first opened-? Maybe just push the WB back 2 hours so it started a little later and then ended in the early evening. Despite being hungry and having a long hard day – I would gladly attend a later closing session of a flea market. I simply do not have the staff to leave my booth during the day for anything other than the bathroom run and I find it entertaining to look for stuff in the WB(for myself not for reselling-not that its anyones business what I do with it after I have paid for it :)

At Fall In the flea market area opens at 2pm on Friday, the dealer hall opens at noon. Unless my math is off that *is* two hours sooner the dealer hall opens. And last I checked there is always a line to get into the dealer hall right before it opens. I know because I'm always in it. On Saturday the dealer hall opens at 9am and the flea market at 10am. The two used to start at the same time and end at the same time now the flea market opens 1-2 hours after the dealer hall and closes an hour before. What more do you want? If you want extended hours who's stopping the dealers asking to open the dealer hall even earlier? Why not open it at 8am, or god forbid stay open till 7.

Dealers are doing this for a living in many cases. If this is their primary income why not make accommodations? FM sellers are not relying on the FM to make a living are they? As you suggest the dealers can make allowances in terms of scheduling as well.

We should not be so inflexible as to consider other possibilities.
Heck I'll even take an evening FM slot if that helps. This is about the only time that would work for me (don't usually sell because of this), too busy buying stuff.

TRU

The FM area opens 2 hours after the dealer areas FFF. Fri: Dealers 12:00 FM 2:00. Sat it also opens later. So that solves one of your problems.

"Dealers are doing this for a living in many cases. If this is their primary income why not make accommodations? FM sellers are not relying on the FM to make a living are they? As you suggest the dealers can make allowances in terms of scheduling as well."

Excellent point.

TRU, let me now respectfully disagree. I would guess that most shoppers have something specific in mind to buy when they come to the Cons, and not just something "new and shiny". Unless that specific object if found at the flea market, you'll still be buying it at the Dealer Hall.

We'll… Most of the time.
Impulse purchases account for quite a bit.
:)

•The most obvious thing impacting dealer sales from my perspective is the way on-line retailing has changed how we all buy hobby stuff (and just about everything else).

I wanted ot comment on this… the dynamics of our conventions have changed over the last 30 plus years…. seriously. It used to be that the ONLY place you could go to get stuff was at the shows… to say the internet and online shopping has not affected shop profits is a flat out untruth… especially since you can go to other stores and get up to 25% off and free shipping online.

Not to mention, how many times must it be said that a lot, if not most folks in WB take that cash and run to the dealer hall to buy stuff…. I do it every show. And, at shows where I don't do well in the WB selling.. I spend less in the dealer area.

As a past dealer myself, been there, done that… but I have only done the dealer hall at most with 2 tables. I do understand the expenses, as a CD I know what things cost… and, as Otto has pointed out… you can have large game venues without dealers at affordable prices…

Also, as some dealers have pointed out… options like Salute are very viable indeed. The cost of renting the tables and space for the dealer hall wound NOT be a wash… the dealers do generate money, but not as much as some might think. The show would not sink without the dealers, but on the same note… it would be an epic fail as the dealers are a VERY important part of the shows IMHO.

Maybe both are the answer, maybe neither….

I come to the shows for all 3…. games, dealers and WB… to me, that is what makes HMGS unique and waaaaay better than Salute or The Weekend…. both great in their own accord.

So, going back to the basics… the timelines as mentioned are very nice… I am sorry, I disagree that WB is taking a lot of money from the dealers. As so many times it has been said already… folks in WB take their loot and spend it there… and yes, the dealer area is a ghost town when WB opens…. folks want deals…. a lot of what is found in WB is not available in or never will be in the dealer hall again…. EVER…. out of print stuff, etc…. alot of WB stuff winds up IN the dealer hall… At F-I! alone, my Bloodbowl stuff wound up bought and put into sale in the dealer hall… I got what I wanted for them… I hope the dealer does too!!! I am very much OK wiht this.

Now.. I believe it is also VERY true that shoppers who come to the dealer area also have a very specific shopping list… most dealers do not offer new items at every show… I come to the dealer hall to buy VERY SPECIFIC loot. Stuff I want to be new, in box and can only be found in the dealer hall…. I RARELY see something "new" there that gets me into a game… The only exception was "All Quiet on the martian front"… I missed the kickstarter and when this stuff was at F-I! I immediately dropped $120 USD-ish on the hard rules and some models.

But you see my point??? I knew about this game FROM THE INTERNET… most of us buy online now and not from the local brick and mortar…. shame on us in so many ways… we need these stores to promote the hobby! But I stick to my guns… When I go to shows, I know exactly what I am looking for at the dealer hall…. I pretty much browse the rest and admire the awesomeness, but rarely does it entice me to buy stuff NOT on my list. The WB is the same way…. with one exception… some deals are too good to pass up. I can name 2 dealers in the dealer area whom I buy form regularly because their prices are soooo rock bottom…. so deals can be found in the dealer area too. Both of these dealers have been approached by other dealers about raising their prices as they were "hurting the bottom line" for the other dealers… yet they still came to the dealer area, had great prices, sold out, made profits, etc…

I have ot be clear though:

My whole logic though for a later WB session is still… the dealers as a whole DESERVE a chance to have this fun too…. do not think for one moment that dealer "A" who sells only 25mm figures doesn't game or own any 15mm or some other figures, etc… they DESERVE a chance to sell their stuff and have the fun that is WB…. That is honestly why I want to do a later session.

For me this would kill 2 birds with one stone. It will prove out the dealer theory of "WB takes sales away"… it will also give them a chance to sell their extra stuff… either way… it will be a logisticall nightmare for the staff, but help validate or null the dealer hall issues.

I would like to now take this time to address another issue… filling the dealer hall. I have future plans to address HMGS BoD with the thought of doing something similiar to other shows… I propose a one time "one free table" to folks who want to be in the dealer hall with their business… it will bring folks into the dealer hall… I have already worked out the "abuse and bugs" tracking method for folks trying to get free tables every show by submitting fake names, etc….

We have only one sandbox… we all need ot work together to make it work. To me, the show is about EVERYTHING…. and a show would be so much less if any one aspect were missing.

I know you guys have a lot of other thoughts on this.. I want it all to work.

Dear Foxfoxfox

You say "For those that say the Dealer Hall and WB don't directly compete I would say-Everything that cost an individual money from their pockets when they go on the adventure of attending a show is in direct competition with each other- everything. "

Which means that you begrudge the money I spent at Stolfuss canning Co and the Winery.

Sorry. they maybe in competition for it's a competition you can't win. People want different things, and when I go into a dealer hall or Flea Market there are certain things I'm looking for and if you have them, then you're a lucky man, but if you don't sorry. I'm not going to buy something else. if I go to the Flea market and I want old 20mm resinc ast tanks or the old plastic tanks, and they don't have them. Oh well, to bad, so sad, have a piece of fruit. I'm not going to buy war hammer stuff.

You guys seem to think that people HAVE to spend their money on something. They don't

You know.. you dissatisfied dealers might try getting some new stuff.

lol, isn't human nature great!

lets all offer solutions to "fix the problem" before we can even agree to what "the problem" is…if there is one.

So, everyone has their interests in mind when they offer "solutions".

well, if the Fleas are killing the dealer area, you dealers are sure taking a long time to die!! I've been coming for over 26 years…and you dealers are still here! What's up with that? Go…leave if you're going to.

But don't blame the FM for your decision. The dealer hall is already a quasi-FM.

p.s. – Otto Schmidt posted some profound observations early on; no one remarked on them…missing the greater point perhaps.

I've been going for almost 30 years and the dealers are still there and will probably continue to be. Look how many were at Fall In(top of page)
The solution for the dealers to buy from the FM is to bring a trusted sole to watch your table when the FM opens. They have been complaining that they don't do much business when it opens so their probably not losing much business anyway.
Rather than change the whole structure for a handful of people.

/Rant/ Ouch… must repress grammar nazi in me … /Rant/

I would point out, LVG, that many dealers do not really have a trusted soul.

I wish I could take part in various games that are going on while I'm sitting at my flea market table. I make a choice about what I want to do. I don't ask that the convention change when games are scheduled just so I can take part. I either sign up for a game or sign up for a flea market table.

Either the issue here (as it was originally spun) is that the flea market hurts the dealer area and should be changed as a result, or that the flea market is scheduled so that some dealers apparently can't make it to shop and should be scheduled so they can. It's my opinion some tried to raise the first point but when rebutted claimed the second point as a way to further their attempts at shrinking the footprint of the flea market.

So which is it?

So far no one has provided a shred of evidence that the flea market tangibly causes the dealers harm, and frankly some dealers who wish they could attend the flea market but supposedly can't due to their booth doesn't strike me as a very good reason to change the flea market hours. There ARE dealers who attend the flea market when it opens and shop. I see them all the time. There ARE dealers that leave their table during the day and visit the flea market even when they don't have someone to watch their booth. Why should the flea market be changed to accommodate a handful of people versus the hundreds that are fine with it as it is and prefer it that way?

"Dealers are doing this for a living in many cases. If this is their primary income why not make accommodations? FM sellers are not relying on the FM to make a living are they? As you suggest the dealers can make allowances in terms of scheduling as well."

That's why.

"I wish I could take part in various games that are going on while I am sitting at my flea market table."

It's your choice to do the Friday PM, Saturday AM and PM and Sunday free session at Cold Wars and Fall In and the Thursday PM, Friday AM and PM, Saturday AM and PM and Sunday free session at Historicon.

Nobody is putting a gun to your head to sell at every flea market session.

That's your choice.

Oh and good luck at the Flea Market at Southern Front this weekend, hope you've had time to restock your inventory after all those Fall In sales of yours.

That is correct nobody puts a gun to my head to get a table at any flea market session. I sometimes do Sat afternoons but not always. Sat AM is a must. I never did Sun morning until I realized how well that free session does.

The point therein is I make my choices as to what I do with my time and I don't expect the convention or my fellow gamers to change to accomate those choices.

• Double G,
• 
  
• I understand completely your comment on the small margin, even smaller based on discounts that may be offered. I know almost nobody running a hobby business is getting even moderately rich doing it, with most probably supplementing the store income with another source of some sort to run what's basically a labor of love. When I researched it I couldn't see a way to assure myself and my lovely bride that we would have a steady income, hence my position as hobby consumer. I truly admire anyone who has figured out how to make it work.
• 
  
• I'm all for a flea market session that's outside dealer hall hours, I just don't think one of the prime flea market sessions should be cut to do it (Fri Pm and Sat AM based on my experience). From my foxhole that would mean offering a Friday and/or Saturday evening flea market session, say from 7-10 pm. I'd be willing to give it a go and have Saturday afternoon available to game and shop.
• 
  
• Now, can someone point me to basic formatting instructions like a carriage return without bulletizing? Thanks.
• 
  

Between flea market sessions, say Sat AM and Sat PM there is a short one hour break during which folks selling in both slots can leave there stuff set up before the next session starts. If the Sat PM session is dropped and an evening session is offered that means people who choose to get a table space in both sessions will have to haul their stuff in and out and set it up and pack it up twice in one day.

If there is interest in adding a night session like was tried at Hcon I'm all for it but not at the expense of removing another session during the day.

Watching what goes on in this topic is wonderful. It explains so much about the Suni-Shiite, Tutsi/Hutu, hill people, plain people, Hatfields and McCoys, Ford/Chevy, Coke/Pepsi conflict.

Once again if we can't get along and avoid demonizing the other guy, in a stupid, silly, ittly-bittly hobby like war games hat hope have we for the above conflicts.

As I said before, while my sympathies are 110% with the dealers, I do have to say that if you are disappointed that becoming a dealer of wargaming chinoiserie is not giving you the life style we would all wish to be accustomed to, then you should have done your due diligence. Once you transit from a hobby to a business, the laws of business take over and war games be daymmed and that is that. You made your hobby your business and that my friends is a Faustian bargain. There never was, never is, and never will be enough money in the hobby to support anyone other than in extreme poverty. You should have gone into Model Railroading.

As for the Flea-Marketeers, they are flirting with business, but are, from that standpoint doubly daymned. Yes, you might have bought that model tank in 1970 for $3.00 USD and now you're selling it for $5 USD, but as anyone who is remotely concerned with a merchandising operation (which is what you got, you are buying stuff, putting into your warehouse (wargaming closet) and selling it ten years later, the carrying charges, overhead and time you have your money invested in it have made it woefully unprofitably by the time you sell it. But most flea-marketeers price their stuff to sell-- no-- make that price it to get rid of it, which is usually way below the original price.

If one carefully reads below all the arm-waving and bellowing, the problem is really the comparative cost per table. Vendors feel they are being gouged by the HMGS and Flea-Marketeers are getting lightly touched. So, the gripe of the vendors is NOT with the Fleas, but with the HMGS. So ALL of these plans about time and hours and openings and games won't solve the basic problem that you feel HMGS is gouging you. And they do it because they can.

So. The Solution is simple.

All the dealers drop out of the HMGS cons, find another hall close buy wherever the HMGS cons are being pitched and rent that, let yourselves in for free by divvying up the tables for cheap, and if you have to, rent a shuttle bus to circle between the two venues. Want to double down on that? Open your facility to flea-marketers as well. Put them all in one big hall and have at it.

A simple fact. The Host costs HMGS about $15,000 USD for a convention. The Fredericksburg Center costs them about $48,000. USD

Ken,
Your points about stores are spot on; anyone who has an actual store, my hat is off to them, you have to sell a lot of little metal army men to cover you nut every month, whatever is left over is what you survive on, don't know how people do it. Just this past year, four that I know of closed.

Like you, I looked into opening one and the cost vs benefit did not add up, so I continue to have a virtual store, ie, my website and I take my act on the road to various shows throughout the year roughly 18 to 20 times.

Otto has made some great points throughout this "debate", his Hatfields vs the McCoys observation as to what this has become, I'd also go Crips vs Bloods and North vs South regarding the Civil War.

Why we are arguing over this and some have this us vs them, dealers vs flea marketers mentality is mind boggling to me, we are ALL wargamers/collectors here, are we not? I don't know of any dealer out there who also isn't a wargamer/collector.

Actually, check that; a certain dealer at the cons is not a collector of anything other than money, he's also the one who bitches the most about the flea market, yet sends his minions over there to peddle overstock and then brags about the 400.00 or 500.00 he pulls out of every session.

Him aside, we're all in the same boat here.

Dan has made a suggestion for Fall In that to me is not earth shatteringly radical, he wants to move the Friday PM session to Friday night and drop the Saturday afternoon session, so in the end, you lose one whole session and move another one.

This movement will allow dealers to shop at the flea market (well, any dealers who don't have a 7:00pm nighty night time along with a shot of Geritol) and take advantage of all those wonderful bargains I always used to see and now hear about.

This way, I don't have to rely on a trusted friend (keep those brilliant ideas coming LVG) to watch over my stand and make sales, take money and greet customers, all the while selling items he has not clue one regarding the prices and value of. Yeah, that will work.

If as some of you flea market veterans claim, this will be a disaster of epic proportions that the wargaming world has never seen the likes of and it comes true, then fine, put things back the way they were, life goes on, so will the conventions.

Seriously; all of this is nonsensical to me, but what do I know, I'm one of those evil dealers who has the gall to try to make a living at this.

Otto, I have to disagree… per "time used", WB tables are more expensive. The issue is not cost of tables, but other overhead dealers incur… the bigger the dealer, the more their overhead. The cost of tables is definitely cheaper to be a dealer… within the strict requirements of a "one table" rule… dealers also get 2 free dealer badges and do not have to be HMGS members (a lot are members, that isn't the point I am making though) while foks in WB must be a member, must buy a badge and are limited to ONE table…

Overall… as a small dealer who only uses ONE table.. it is far cheaper to have a dealer table across the weekend.

Cost: $95 USD… I get one table for 18 hours, 2 badges and don't have to spend money on being a member or admission. One might argue that that is what the $95 USD fee is, but it is still cheaper in the long run to be in the dealer hall.

WB: $25 USD annual membership fee, show pre-reg cost $20 USD and $25 USD table x3 sessions not counting Sunday now…. that gives me 9 hours of guaranteed operation for a cost of: $120. USD Even if you throw in the 3 free hours for Sunday, you are still paying $120 USD for 12 operating hours on one table.

So to correct my earlier math:

Dealers pay $95 USD/18= $5.28 USD USD/hr and WB pay $120 USD/12= $10 USD USD. Again I say… that puts that myth to rest doesn't it…?

The dealers real cost comes in with multiple tables… that is where they are hit the hardest… BUT… believe me, if folks COULD buy multiple tables in WB…. They most certainly WOULD… and at WB costs.. they would stil wind up being $10 USD/hr of operation vs the dealer $5.28 USD/hr.

The real issues is the empty dealer hall as foks go to WB at the start of all sessions…. this gives the dealers the illusion that the dealers are losing money to WB… when, in fact…. these facts are solidly established:

1. most WB folks spending in the dealer area is intimately tied to them selling stuff in WB… they reinvest in new toys.

2. most folks who spend money in the dealer area come with very predetermined shopping lists.. only WB folks get giddy and compulsive on spending if they do well in WB… no one here will deny that.

3. it is very rare that folks will see something in the dealer hall that is new and shiney OUTSIDE their intended expenses and will buy it… unless they have the cash burning a hole in their pocket… ie.. see #2… WB folkgs get spend happy when they do well.. I knwo I do… I rush right over to the dealer hall and dump the cash into new toys, even stuff NOT on my budget list… better a dealer get it then my wife!!!!!!!

4. in WB folks sell and buy MOSTLY stuff that is not available at dealers any more…. out of print, etc…

5. the video killed the radio star…. err, I mean the internet, as much as a boon it is to stores, has greatly reduced what folks will spend on site as they can order from the stores anytime… and many folks here have admitted.. buying and paying for stuff upfront from dealers and then picking it up at the shows…

The one common thread here across all of this is the internet… it really is a catch 22 for dealers…. it reduces their overhead considerable if they don't go to shows and advertise on line, but also.. without being seen… folks will forget about them causing a drop in business so they must continue to go to shows to showcase new lines, games, tools, etc….

My heart goes out for the larger dealers.. it is a cost and I do hope they make their money back and then some… dealers must realize for every internet sale they get, they are probably losing one "on site"…. as much as the net has opened up your storefront to every corner of the world, it has and will also hinder your "live" sales as folks will inevitably buy online when needed and come ot the shows with specific lists and also hopes of finding a treasure in WB that no dealer sells…

I see clearly both sides of this, but I will also stand behind… dealers need a time to enjoy WB too and as mentioned, a lot of them just don't have the manpower to do both as is… when I did the dealer hall I hated that I couldn't get to WB for anything, ever!!!!!

I could propose this horrible solution…. combine both into one and make it one huge WB with unlimited table options…. and all costs would be WB costs… since everyone thinks they are cheaper… you would quickly see dealers would have to close shop as they couldn't afford to have large table spaces, even if they paid the WB fees and could opt out of sessions…. they would have the increased cost of no more free badges (well, the first 2) and then they would all be required to be members and pay admission…. dealers really do have a good deal when it comes to what they are getting. breaking it out…. $95 USD per table for 18 hours…. if they did that in WB on one table, we already expressed ONE person would be paying $120 USD in WB for 12 hours… Now, lets add in the 2nd badge dealers get… that would cost an additional $25 USD annual added in and an admission (assume pre-reg) + $20 USD more…

Otto,
I also wanted to say I wish you the best with your weekend gaming event, sounds like it's getting popular, so continued success with that.

Also, just so we are clear, moving the Friday PM session to Friday night and dropping the Saturday PM session serves two purposes; it allows dealers to shop Friday night and it also eliminates 6 hours where the flea market goes head to head with the dealer hall. Just wanted to be clear on that, nothing cryptic about what I am proposing here.

I'll take my chances going head to head on the Saturday AM session. Saturday is when the majority of the day trippers come in, so fine, let them shop in the flea market in the AM and then come over to the dealer hall.

If you drop 6 hours of head to head selling, the result may be an increase in dealer profits. If that happens and word gets out, maybe some of the dealers who dropped out will come back, the dealer hall will be packed again and those of you who complain about lack of choices in the dealer hall will be happy again with all the choices that are available as a result.

What's wrong with that? Selling in the flea market cuts in on dealer profits; anyone who says this is not the case is beyond clueless. If a gamer has a 500.00 spending budget and he drops 400.00 in the flea market, that leaves 100.00 for dealer hall shopping.

The same items are not being sold in each location, but the SAME DOLLARS are being chased after by both flea market sellers and dealers.

It's a simple concept, economics 101 really, why some don't understand that is beyond me. It happened to me the first time I went to Historicon; I blew almost all of my cash in two flea market sessions and did not want to rack up a lot of credit card purchases, so I basically called it a day early Saturday morning and went home. The next year, I brought twice as much cash to avoid that scenario happening again.

Lastly, I'm sorry but anyone selling in the flea market for more than two sessions in my eyes is a dealer and should be over in the dealer hall. If you sell three sessions, that's 75.00; at Fall In, for another twenty bucks, you can get a table and sell all weekend long.

Now that flies in the face of not wanting to be chained to a table all weekend, but what's 9 hours in the flea market vs 15 in the dealer hall, plus you could always have a trusted friend watch you table if you're worried about not being able to take advantage of all the bargains in the flea market; naturally you'd have to take advantage of those bargains when the flea market is running, not before it opens.

My cousin is the best example of how the flea market should work; he brought a box full of model kits and other items he no longer wanted and took a table in the Saturday AM session; he sold most of his stuff at bargain basement prices and that was that, one session, his unwanted stuff was gone, he was happy and the people who bought it were happy.

He didn't bring a trunk full of boxes and have a table for four sessions; anyone who does that should be in the dealer hall, it's really that simple.

It will never happen, but it should.

Poniatowski has laid it all out beautifully and synthesized what many of us have been saying and pointing out all along. Excellent and well said!

To add to what he very clearly laid out, let me also add that flea market sellers also have no real security, no extra lighting, no table covers, no displays, nothing under the table, nothing above the table over a certain height, can't use credit cards or PayPal, and they have to set up and tear down once, maybe twice a day. So not only are they paying more money to sell they have more obstacles to actually selling. These obstacles are said to be due to fire marshal regulations but everyone knows that isn't the case. Certainly accepting PayPal has nothing to do with fire safety. Nor does using a display shelf to put some of my junk on to sell. These silly obstacles to selling are fine, whatever, I deal with them and do just fine in the process but don't kid yourself that they aren't there to appease the dealers who are furious about what some consider an infringement on their turf.

This continuous drumbeat to drop a regular day session and add a night session is getting tiresome. Why if a night session is added does a day session need to be removed. If HMGS wants to add another session to those already present doesn't that make more money for the convention? What possible reason is there to justify taking away a session just to add another at a later time slot?

None whatsoever, but I bet this thread goes for at LEAST another 2-3 pages and gets more acrimonious as it continues… 8)=

I've never found the afternoon flea markets to be as well attended as the morning session, nor as well stocked in fleas of interest. Just my opinion based on decades of HMGS cons.

Dear Poniatowski

Wunnerfull wunnerfull-- but if what you say is true, then where is the debate? What are we arguing about? If it actually costs a Flea MORE to exhibit than a dealer, then were is the argument?

It seems then, if we accept your point, then we are at the situation where the dealers REALLY DO want to banish the Fle-market completely. Here I have to line up with "Dougle G" WHAT ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT HERE!

We have dealers defending the Fleas, Fleas praising the Dealers, and at the same time underneath all this love fest we have four pages of arguments and plans on what to do about something everybody's complaining about but no one wants to settle. Jeez, I though my Sunni's Shiites- Coke Pepsi was a bit of snark!

So if what you are saying is true dan, it would be cheaper for the Fleas to take tables in the dealers hall…

I got through Thomistic theology in college easier.

Otto