"Dealer Area versus Wally's Basement.. Why overlap at all?" Topic

You through that point off quickly DB about effecting night game attendance but its a valid point. Yes, I read every comment and am not impressed with their arguments for such a radical change. If it was totally up to them there would be no flea market…

Long Valley Gamer-Many dealers have been coming for a long time but as many have mentioned- dealer attendance is down….very noticeable at Fall In and Hcon. Keeping things the way they are is not always the best way to travel forward especially when there appears to be a possible fixable problem.

Not sure how having the FM at night is not fair to them- please elaborate. As far as night game attendance it would probably help increase walk ups. It would give people another reason to stick around at night and another activity to look forward to doing at night.

We squauk not because we are just trying to be a problem but because we are expressing an observation that we see is a problem and could be made better and yes it does affect us and all the money we are making- hah. You want a hand full of dealers and a flea market when its all said and done no problem- have it your way.

Long valley Gamer-Over the years, what concessions have been made for the dealers? Not sure how you think we dealers have a voice- we are probably the least organized of any group involved at the shows. We have no presence on the Board and really no one looking out for us- not even ourselves:(

FFF,
First off Fall In has always had less vendor attendance than the other 2 cons. Secondly, the move down south obviously had an effect on dealer attendance along with other than a robust economy.
People who could be playing in a game at night might opt out for fear they will miss a bargain at the flea market.
You are also making a very long day for folks who sell in the FM…
I have a long history going to cons as far back as Maryland. The FM used to have little time restrictions. Over the years they have been continually changed in order to satisfy the dealers. One change the FM should open when the dealers open. Then it went to an hour later. Now it's 2 hours later. Now their calling for at night…after that Sunday afternoon only…

First off Walley's Basement is open 9 hours over 3 sessions not 12. I don't see how WB is a direct competition for the dealer area. I really don't. The dealer area, for the most part, sells new items and WB sells used. Money made in WB is then used to buy items in the dealer area.

I love being able to sell in WB and then make a run to the dealer area to make purchases flush with cash.

The convention is for the gamers. Not the dealers.

LVG
myself and other vendors are expressing our professional opinion regarding what we believe is an issue at the shows. It is interesting that you think we want the FM elimininated- what is this based on other than just your opinion? I think you would have a pretty difficult time finding any of us calling for its elimination. Actually the opposite has been expressed- Again I think it is an important part of the East shows and I do not want it eliminated. I want the show to be the best it can be for all the groups attending and yes that includes us evil vendors.

FFF, I'm expressing my professional opinion
Opposite expressed by dealers…really! The majority would love to see it gone due to many of them viewing it as competition. They can't get rid of it so they screw around with it's timing. Glad you want it around though you "evil vendor"

Just to be clear, Double G along with a few other dealers have long had an issue with the flea market. Not just the timing but with having it at all. Double G has gone on record in the past stating he "knows" flea market sellers are making "tons of money" and "they run straight to the bank" never stopping for a second anywhere else. I don't recall if it was Historicon or Cold Wars this year, but Double G made the above outlandish claim and stated that his booth at that show was do or die and if he didn't make enough money he was done forever. The implication was that if he didn't do well it wasn't his fault or the fault of the product he sells or how he sets up his table or how he runs his operations or the economy, but the people selling in the flea market. Apparently he did ok in the end because he was at Fall In.

I'm not saying that certain dealers don't have legitimate honest concerns, but some dealers in particular have made it their mission to try and crush any perceived competition from sellers in the flea market. To that I say the same thing I would say to anyone trying to crush competition. Who do you think you are? I understand that dealers are an important part of the hobby (obviously) and that they are an equally important part of conventions, but since when did dealers become the MOST IMPORTANT focus at conventions?

The flea market generates a ton of money for HMGS. Gamers buying flea market tables generates between $4,000 USD and $5,000 USD in revenue for the show. That might be less than the total paid for all the dealer tables in the dealer hall, but it isn't an insignificant amount either. It certainly isn't deserving of being treated like an after thought or something to be shoved to the side for a few hours at night.

There are many people who attend conventions strictly to go the the flea market and the dealer hall. Take away or seriously restrict the flea market and you will loose those people. Take away or seriously restrict the timing and hours of the flea market and you will likewise see a drop.

Since when does the discussion have to be about limiting the flea market to odd hours after dark? Why isn't the discussion about making the dealer hall open at night instead? If such HUGE crowds hit the flea market doesn't that imply the flea markets are wildly popular? Why therefore should they be limited and not the dealer hall?

Part of the answer was well stated above. The length of time someone spends in the dealer hall does not equal more or less money spent there. Have any of the dealers thought of this – every HMGS convention has many of the same dealers show up selling the exact same stuff they sold at the last show and for the most part the exact same stuff that can be purchased from them online over the internet. The prices are the same and product is pretty much the same as well. Gamers know what they want, they shop, see the product, buy or not, and move on. A *huge* amount of people take what they make in the flea market and spend it in the dealer hall. When I shop in the dealer hall I can make it through in less than 45 minutes and see everything I need to see. I make note of what I want, buy stuff I know will disappear and then do other stuff all weekend. On Sat late or Sun early I show up and spend money I made in the flea market on stuff I know will still be there.

The problem here isn't the flea market at all.

And point of fact, Historicon tried a night flea market session and it was a disaster. There were at best 5-6 sellers and hardly any buyers. I didn't see a single dealer stop by either. So the notion that having night sessions is some sort of grand solution is false. Most people selling the flea market want to sell during the day, hit the dealer hall before and after the market is open, get dinner once everything is closed and then game in the evening.

Another point of fact, I have been involved with game conventions for many years on both East and West Coasts.

At the game conventions on the West Coast it is typical to have a dealer hall open during some version of normal business hours during the day. A flea market is usually held late at night, often times called midnight madness, and it goes from 10 or 11pm until 2 or 3am. They are wildly popular and pretty much the entire convention stops and attends the madness. They are also almost impossible to shop at and not geared towards an older or aging demographic (due to the late hour and to the fact you have to fight to see or buy anything).

In addition to this the dealer hall is busy when it opens, and again before it closes around 5-6pm. Guess what? The rest of the day it is almost empty, even though there is NO competing flea market at the same time.

Having the flea market late at night might seem appealing but it won't change the number of people shopping during the day. It will on the other hand impact the amount of money that makes its way back to the dealer hall.

These examples aren't vague ideas or theories, I've seen them in person as a gamer, as a seller in a flea market, and as a convention staff member. This is fact.

I usually get a WB table on Saturday mornings. I spend most of what I make there at the dealer's hall immediately after.
I also like the idea of the dealer hall running from 9-5 Friday and Saturday, flea market 6-9 Friday and 10-1 on Saturday. It might be a good experiment to try one time, at least.

Another point of fact. This has been stated but deserves being stated again.

The reason flea markets, be they Wallys Basement or any other version, are so popular is because almost everything sold there is unique and much of it is impossible to find anywhere else. A few posters here have made claims about "stacks and stacks of brand new product" but I've rarely seen that. Most everything sold is unique, used, old, out of print, or from a gamers collection or an estate.

And besides so what if someone sold brand new product in the flea market? Do people really think buyers in the flea market are that dumb?? If a dealer "snuck" into the flea market and sold their games at going market value do you really think they will clear everything out in one or two sessions? People expect and demand low prices in the flea market. That is not conjecture it is COLD HARD FACT. A dealer trying to sell product at going market prices will not sell much if anything at all. They will take it home. And for their enjoyment they paid $25 USD for a bare bones table crammed next to 79 other sellers with no security, no ability to put stuff under the table or use displays, no ability to use credit cards, and the pleasure of packing everything in and out in their arms every 3-6 hours.

Sorry but there is no issue with secret dealers selling new product in the flea market taking away money from the "real dealers". As I stated earlier and backed up with facts, the problem is more likely that the same dealers attend the same shows with the same product over and over and over again. And that's great I say!!! I love seeing these dealers, but I also don't need to walk around them for 9 hours a day to know what I want. A flea market isn't what is taking people away from the dealer hall.

Actually the products sold in the Dealer Hall AND WB are nearly impossible to find anywhere else, except for online. I do not like to shop online for anything.
Dealers who were not at the dealer's hall, or secret WB dealers who did not attend, get zero chance at getting any of my money. Call me old fashioned, but I like to see, look at, and examine a product before I buy it.

The flea market is broken? I guess it depends on how you define broken. I see a wildly popular, well attended, often sold out venue that is packed with people. I do see less manufacturers attending the cons, more retailers. I can see a day when that decline will continue due to rising costs, lessening demand.

I have been attending these cons so long now (late 80s) that I have seen a lot of dealers/products come and go. Remember when Wargames Inc had a huge footprint in the dealers area? Gone. I don't see that happening with the flea market.

I would also suggest that the not so subtle shift in HMGS cons hosting more and more non-military, non historical games with a corresponding increase in such materials for sale in the flea market has created some of the situation. The most popular tables in the FM are often those selling GW stuff. Just an anecdotal observation.

For the record I bought four built models in the FM not sold in the dealer area. I bought lots of unpainting minis and some scenics from dealers, not sold in the FM. Free market. Works for me. :-)

Little Wars 2014 tried the Flea Market and Dealer Area not being open at the same time. From my observation no one benefited from this arrangement.
Full Disclosure: I sell my old stuff in the Flea market to help buy new stuff.
I have an idea: let's not have gaming while the Dealer Area is open??
It's up to you to figure out if I am being serious..but gaming is a much bigger time competitor to Dealers than the Flea Market.
As with most things these days this discussion is really all about money not time and nothing good every comes from discussions that focus on money

Very good point about Little Wars.

So in addition to my direct observations about evening flea markets on the West Coast and the lack of impact it had on the dealer area we now have another excellent example as well, this time from Little Wars. I have seen that convention first hand but had forgotten about it. I now recall that mid day when the flea market wasn't even open the dealer area there was very thinly populated as well.

The key here isn't that the flea market is taking away shoppers from the dealer area, it's that people don't spent nine hours shopping, nor do they need to.

In fact something that has been greatly overlooked in this misplaced discussion is that the dealer area may "clear out" once the flea market opens, but the flea market area clears out as well after about the first hour! Do people think the flea market remains packed at full tilt all day long? An hour after the flea market has opened in some cases the place is just as empty. Shortly before the area closes another rush might come through, but that's it. Where do all those people go?

Whatever the case may be folks come to these shows to shop, buy stuff, and to play games. They don't spend all day in the dealer hall any more than they spend all day in the flea market. To suggest that one is taking away people from the other is misinformed and incorrect. Both experience lulls during the time they are open. It's natural and not unusual at all. It's totally natural that the these areas experience rushes and lulls and doing away with one or hindering it won't stop that from occurring.

If dealers want an experience that sees no drop off in shoppers they should organize a show that is just dealers with no gaming and no other stuff going on at all. Lots of hobby related pastimes have conventions just for buying stuff. As long Fall In and Cold Wars and Historicon and any other game convention has a multitude of things for people to do (and to draw them in the first place) there will always be an ebb and flow to the timing of shoppers.

Several years ago at Cold Wars, there was a new vendor in
the hall selling board games, they were across the aisle from me on an endcap.

On Saturday, one of them came over to me and asked is Friday always that slow as they did not do too much in the way of sales. I told him not really, Friday is usually pretty good, but don't worry, today is the day all the day trippers come in.

Mid morning, I overheard an attendee telling one of the guys in the booth he bought a game they had for sale at 25% off in the flea market from a guy who had numerous shrink wrapped board games.

One of the guys left the booth and went to the flea market; when he came back, they packed and left.

On Sunday, a guy comes up to me and asks what happened to the guys selling the board games and I told him they packed and left yesterday as they were being undercut in the flea market; the guy told me "That was me; too bad for them, they went home crying, I'm going home and laughing all the way to the bank."

So Jason, that is the guy I usually refer to with my "outlandish" claim as you call it about dealers
making money in the flea market and laughing all the way to the bank over it.

And again, I know of two toy soldier dealers who sell in there every session, one of whom uses his sons HMGS membership to do so and I asked one of them why don't they get dealer hall tables and he laughed at me.

Why are you making this so personal against me, I don't get it; you seem to have a photographic memory over things I've said, plus you are assuming a lot about me regarding my feelings toward the flea market.

Do me a big, fat favor; don't assume anything about me and stop putting two and two together and getting twenty two when in fact the correct answer is four.

You think you know me and how I think, but you are so far out in left field it's embarassing.

Again, no need for you to make it so personal. If you have a point to make, then go ahead and make it, but leave the personal attacks out of it.

Over the years you will always have instances where things are not as they should be…Re: the board game seller
However, it is rare that happens not a norm.
J.Pipes makes some excellent points. The bottom line is leave the flea market alone. The dealers would make less sales without it…..

Double G I didn't mean to make any of this personal, but my comments were posted in response to yours now and in the past in which you've made it clear that you think most of the people in the flea market make wads of cash and run around laughing how great it is to undercut the dealers. If a flea market seller makes money, first of all so what that is no ones business but theirs. Secondly come on, do you really expect us all to believe that more than one or two people have ever had that sort of attitude?? Of course there are jerks in this hobby like any hobby, but the vast majority of people selling in the flea market love the dealers and spend their hard earned money with them as soon as they get it in their pocket. If I had to wager I would say 75% of the people selling in the flea market spend a good amount of what they make in the dealer room.

And frankly you have made this a big issue, and over something one guy said at one show several years ago? That's not exactly a reason in my book to dramatically alter what has thus far been a wildly popular event for attendees and lucrative venture for HMGS.

Jason,
Believe what you want to believe.

And I love this hobby as much as anyone and have the figures, vehicles and terrain to prove it.

I've bought some great items in the flea market to add to my collection; I bought some outstanding terrain from Kurt Dees when he was geting out of 20mm WWII, some great figures from Lare Arra and Bill Krieg among others, found some terrific items painted by Tom Panetta, bought loads of 20mm Qualitycast ACW and Napoleonics as well as Der Kriegspielers that are impossible to find.

I've spent more than my fair share in the flea market and handed over my cash gladly.

I'd like the opportunity to continue to do that, but I can't if the flea market runs all the time when the dealer hall does.

I'm not asking for the flea market to be eliminated; show me ANYWHERE on this or any other forum where I've said that.

If me asking for one session to be moved to a nightime event offends you and Long Valley Gamer, then tell you what; leave things just as they are.

I'm done here, the evil dealer like Jim (who by the way is one of my favorite people in this hobby, just a stand up guy)/out for himself capitalistic person that I am, before more words get put in my mouth and others get twisted all around.

AGAIN, go ahead and leave things as they are, you've got my blessing.

As I mentioned a night session was attempted at Historicon. It was a miserable failure. Did you stop by? I was selling in that night session and I don't recall seeing you.

I certainly understand your frustration about not being able to enjoy the rush of the flea market when it opens, for that I don't know what to tell you aside from you can't be everywhere at once. I wish I could play in a bunch of games at 10am on Sat but often can't because that's when I am in the flea market. I don't ask that HMGS postpone game start times until I'm available. You pick your events and plan accordingly. I assume as a dealer you can't play in a lot of games either, right?

Changing the time of the sessions just because you want to attend them doesn't seem like a good solution. You mention that concern now but keep in mind your comments in the past have been more about the quasi-dealers making gobs of dirty money in the flea market and your utter disdain for that. Seems you are moving the goal posts a little.

I know plenty of dealers leave their both for 15-30 minutes and do the flea market during the down time in the dealer hall, and others have a back up or a friend or someone near by watch their booth for them. Not ideal solutions but they are options.

RE: It was a miserable failure.

I think that is unfair. Most people did not even know about the nighttime flea … I only discovered it the day it was given, and I loved it… Since no one else was there, I took up 7 tables… It was great, so at least for me, it was not a miserable failure!

But still, do we really think that one example, poorly publicized, is useful for validating, or invalidating, a suggestion? I sure hope not. We can do better than that.

What I cannot understand is this:

Not a single dealer I've heard from is advocating eliminating the Flea market… In fact, with most of them, it is just the opposite. Why does anyone assume that any of them are advocating elimination of poor Wally?

Most people here seem to think trying (and for heaven's sake, publicizing!) a night time flea is worth the effort.

And I cannot imagine anyone saying: "Your only options are to leave your booth for 15-30 minutes" or "anything else," and not going with "anything else"!

Peace,

Daniel

+1

I can only speak to the numbers.
I was warned that a night time session doea have issues… first and foremost it is getting it staffed.
I am willing to try thisagain… with plenty of warning… Fall-In! is A YEAR AWAY….. be warned…. it will happen.

Let me start at Brigade Games… yes, you are very correct… big dealers have a LOT at stake. I couldn't agree more. Let me finish though by saying there are a lot of one table dealers out there though… who have very little at risk.. one table. I do not want to cloud the issue though! I completely understand your thoughts BG and I support the dealers pov, but I must alos consider the GM's, WB, etc….

I will be watching closely how many dealers get tables to sell or come and shop.. I will be there selling.

You see, I have been a dealer and so do occasionaly for Old Guard Painters. Lots and lots of what is said on both sides of this fence is true…

AND, I will be straight up front.. the real reason I want a night time session is NOT to "not compete"… but rather to give dealers a chance to sell their stuff old stuff and buy stuff too.. I believe the flea market shoudl be experienced by all. If I don't get many… things will gop back to the usual way.

Of note…. I want to say this too. In all of these discussions, not one of you brought up a very hard truth…. the demise of the onsight or B&M store has been the dang internet!!! They sell this stuff at up to 25% off!!! How can a dealer compete with that???? That is why we see so few B&M stores any more.. everything is direct, online and cheaper….

That is why the Brits treat these cons like Trade Shows….

Anyway… I am all for supporting the dealers.. AND… I made almost $500 USD in the flea market… guess what…. $200 USD went to the wife (yes I said wife… sigh) and the whole of the other $300 USD was sunk back into the dealer hall… mostly FoW, dice, a board game… and a book…. the very same book I was about to reach for in Wally's but it was snatched up by what turned out to be a dealer… I still bought said same book at a slightly hight mark up… in the dealer hall… it was a must have! Oh, I did spend some of it back in the flea market too.

I wish I had an easy answer. I will do what I can as long as HMGS will have me back as a CD.

Another one for the record…. check the numbers, lol… Fall-In! is growing… about 1900 (dirty numbers)…. even with the partially empty dealer hall….

Thank you all for doing what you do… and I apologize where I failed you.

Dan

If the suggestion being proposed is to add a night time flea market in addition to those normal day time sessions I am totally fine with that.

If the suggestion is to reduce or remove the day time flea markets and move to a night time flea market only I am totally 110% against that suggestion.

My experience with multiple night time only flea markets on the West Coast is that they are mad houses and the dealer area still has long extended periods of down time regardless of no flea market competing with their open hours.

Add to this my experience in the evening session done at Hcon recently and I don't have high hopes for it. Yes it was just one attempt, but it existed and I don't recall any dealers stopping by, much less anyone else. But adding more sessions? Great, no argument from me. More revenue for HMGS, more time for people to sell and shop, more people get to browse, etc etc. But please don't do it at the expense of cutting back on the already well established flea market sessions. They work very well and are very popular.

If I can chime in….. There were items I was looking for in the dealer hall first – when I couldn't find them, I looked in WB.

AWI Foundry – nobody had them.
Foundry paints – nobody had them.
AWI generals in 28mm – the only ones I saw were Perry and they were special order. Nobody had Foundry.
Perry peasents for Saga – special order.
AWI Leaders – picked up a pack from Eureka! Thank you!
Wargames Factory AWI – nobody had it.
Land of the Free rules – YEA! On Military Matters had it!!

Maybe this was my fault for not reaching out to the dealers and asking for to place the special orders for Fall In.

At night the Flea Market area becomes the Open Gaming area. Has anyone mentioned that yet?

Also, I think the rush to the Flea Market is from about 15 to 20 minutes before it opens and then for the first 45 minutes to an hour afterwards.

By then I have had a chance to go round looking at stuff 2 or 3 times so I either go look at the games or back to the Dealer's Area.

This year I spent 2/3rds of my money in the Dealer's Area.

I have been following this debate from afar, and do not particularly support one side or another in this debate. I do find it interesting though that vendors are prohibited from selling in the flea market during the show, but anyone that buys just to resell in the flea market and it is in there every session, most folks say it is okay. Neither right/wrong but the vendors are not allowed to sell there according to the vendor terms and conditions we are required to adhere to:

"Vendors, their agents, servants, employees or family may not sell in the Flea Market. Vendor agrees doing so will immediately cause removal from the convention without refund and result in forfeiture of any future Priority, and possible rejection of application to future HMGS conventions."

If it is such a crime for vendors to try and sell something (even our own collections in the flea market), then I am confused by the stance taken by many. Again I really do not have a dog in this hunt, but at least this provision should be removed by the BOD if Quasi Vendors are located in the flea market. After all, we may have stuff to sell too, and from many of the arguments, this would only strengthen the show for many attendees.

Your thoughts?

I normally would not read a thread like this, as I am in Australia. I am, however, going to attend Cold Wars next year, so I thought that I would have a look.

The big wargames show in Melbourne, where I live, is the annual Little Wars. It is a splendid event, but only goes for one day. There are half a dozen traders. They include Eureka and Battlefield Accessories, but the others generally only sell imported goods (that I can usually buy cheaper on line, but I try to support our traders). There is also a flea market of two or three trestle tables.

I do not pretend to be poperly informed on or have any opinion on the subject matter of this thread, but my (entirely gratuitous) advice to some of you would be to take a deep breath and be grateful for what you've got before you go on the attack.

Dan:

You can't leave us hanging. What was the book? :-)

Speaking as one of the "Junk Dealers" (was called that in a prior springtime post) at the Little Wars Flea market – it was very disappointing this past year. Not from a dollars sold perspective(heck if I have anything of value to sell it typically goes on ebay) But from the point of view of attendence both behind as well as the front of the table. This past year Little wars went with the thought of non-compete with the Dealer timeframe(really late night and early morning timeframes for the Flea Market). It pretty much killed the Flea Market with the majority of the tables staying empty. Since the FM is something we enjoy doing as social, not really for economics activity(I do a lot of trading/wheeling dealing vs selling)(I do try to sell heavy bulking things as shipping them from ebay sales are a pain). These off times have turned a number from our group to seriously look at attending Adepticon(which also does not have a flea market) next year vs Little Wars. I think the bottom line of all this thread is "nobody wants to buy the crap I brought at the price I am willing to sell it and I can't compete with better crap at a lower price." The dealer model changed years ago with the internet; that is where the majority of my purchases go in a year. If I do Little Wars next year, I will do only one session to sell my "Junk"; but if you want my "good stuff" it's on sale on ebay. LOL

Any dollar spent in WB is NOT a dollar taken out of the pockets of the dealers. Some people have to get over this idea.

I spend very little time in the dealer hall. I pre-order almost everything I buy, pre-pay for it, and simply swing by to pick it up. Conversely, I did two sweeps through WB and bought nothing.

This Fall-In I spent more money on my pre-orders with Dealers than I have at every WB in total, in the last 10 years. Anything I do buy at WB is usually just a happy accident.

@Bowman: Very valid point. I always make a couple of passes through a dealer area but, I have pretty niche interests, and I rarely find much to buy other than a stray book here or mini there. I buy what I want from dealer tables and FM tables; one does not cancel out the other.

I think the vendor agreement really refers to selling their "store" wares. I do not liek th ewording exactly, but I truely feel the dealers get a bad end of that stick…

If they honestly want to sell their personal stuff or even things form their discount bins… I think that is very fair. The point is, if it is priced to move, it will and stores cannot price their stuff so cheap all of the time, they couldn't support themselves.

As for the book…. :) WW! Trench Warfare…. I'll leave it at that. And so we are clear… I ABSOLUTELY support this practice. If I sold something and later saw it elsewhere.. dealers or another WB table…. good for them…. I hope they get what they are asking. Many times I have sold stuff to other WB folks (at LEGAL times) and then watched as they repriced and even sold my old stuff at markup in front of me… my thoughts.. I got what I wanted for it… GOOD FOR THEM!!!! Free enterprise is a wonderful thing.

I bought the book because of it's in depth layyout of trench systems in the Great War.

Whatever the Answer, I think that the HMGS conventions that I attend would be the poorer if either the dealers or WB was no longer there.

I would love to see some of WB moved to the night. Virtually all of my time during the day is spent on gaming, trying to cram in as many games as possible. Sometimes my brother-in-law and I host a game. Usually I only visit WB on Sunday and there is not that much quality stuff left to purchase.

The Con needs both vendors and a healthy FM, but now I see diminishing vendors as evidenced by the gaping holes in the vendor area.

Switching "some" of the WB time to night seems like a good compromise. I think the WB sellers at night will find a solid group of buyers, including myself.

I don't see a compromise situation. WS…you elect to play games the whole con.
That doesn't mean the con should accomodate you since you won't make the time. Maybe we should have the dealers area open at night to accomodate you also.

The Viking Forge has attended all but four Historicons and every single Cold Wars. The sole determinant whether or not to attend has always been the availability or lack thereof of vacation time from our real jobs.

Please leave the current flea market arrangement the way it is. I have always said that the only things I expect from a convention staff are to 1) Get people through the front door and 2) Provide a venue that will allow us to showcase our products at a reasonable price. The rest is up to the dealer. If people aren't digging your stuff, maybe you need to change accordingly.

Some of the dealers who complain the loudest about WB are the first ones in line when it opens. Everyone is looking for a bargain and dealers are no exception. I've seen many a dealer snatch up stuff in WB and then then put it on their own tables in the dealer hall at marked-up prices.

But then hey, what do I know?

I agree with Tumbleweed. I have seen terrain I sold in the WB for sale in the Dealer area.
I have seen terrain I sold in the WB for sale again in the WB. Sometimes within minutes.

LVG and others, I know this is a controversial subject and many gamers are passionate about it. Not looking for any accommodation nor do I wish to foster back and forth argument over my comments. Just voicing MY opinion, which this topic was intended to do, and endorsing Poniatowski's plan for next Fall-In. Would like to hear from OTHER gamers and get their take.

I would love to see some of WB moved to the night. Virtually all of my time during the day is spent on gaming, trying to cram in as many games as possible.

Except that the "open table" gaming takes place after 6:00 pm when the tournaments and WB have finished. Every night I am in the Lampeter room with my friends doing this very thing.

The Con needs both vendors and a healthy FM, but now I see diminishing vendors as evidenced by the gaping holes in the vendor area.

I believe we will have less dealers in the future as the economics of closing down, and renting table space at a Convention will become more and more cost prohibitive. The internet has irrevocably changed the way we do business. Its a shame as I like dealing face to face with the dealers and prefer to buy from them directly at the shows.

But, I don't believe the diminished number of dealers can be laid at the feet of WB.

At NJC-FITE we have worked very hard to address this issue.

We have a "Bring and Buy" instead a straight up FM (staff managed) so it is a slightly different situation.

We open the B&B for a few hours at a time throughout the daytime hours trying hard not to overlap game session start times and prime dealer hours.
We have even held B&B sessions after the dealer room has closed for the day.
A solution can be found, but it will require planning and effort. There is a happy medium to be found.

NJC-FITE

At 6 PM when the dealer hall closes I'm feeling pretty hungry and it's time for dinner. By the time we get back it's at least 7 PM and now I'm looking forward to heading back to my room for some rest.

Anyone who just drives up for the day to run a flea market table is potentially looking at a long trip home in the dark. I'm sure we can all come up with a dozen more reasons why WB should not be run in the evening.

A so-called bring and buy might work for a small local event but would never work for a convention like Fall In. The entire idea sounds horrible and strikes me as a burecratic nightmare. I drop my stuff off with someone else who I pay to sell to other buyers. I have no ability to haggle or drop prices and if anything is broken or stolen i have no recourse. I can't sell everything I normally would sell as there are limits on what the bnb staff can handle. I dont get my money until long after the items sell so not only can i not immediately use those funds to buy other stuff in the flea market/bnb i also cant go spend it immediately in the dealer hall either. In addition the con needs a huge staff to sell all the stuff, organize the funds, return unsold goods and make payouts. Like I said a horrible horrible scenario that is a solution in search of a problem to solve. I would stop attending Fall in before I sold my stuff in a bring and buy set up.

Just some thoughts and comments from a long time HMGS convention attendee -

[ 1 ] I know for a drop dead fact that certain dealers troll the flea market early, then look to re-sell their purchases at a mark-up in the dealer hall.

[ 2 ] Miniature wargaming is a rapidly graying hobby. That implies, over time, a lot of old, surplus, but still perfectly usable stuff being unloaded to a slowly shrinking customer base.

[ 3 ] Prices keep going up at the dealer hall, but that does not mean that hobbyist disposable income is keeping pace.

[ 4 ] It was not so long ago that there was a year+ waiting list for vendor table space at HCon. Before blaming the flea market for current vendor problems, I think everyone needs to take a close look at what has changed across the bigger picture. I strongly suspect that this is a lot more complicated than just "the flea market".

B

There are alternative approaches to scheduling that could better coordinate the two venues.

TRU

Seems we have reached a plateau in the discussion. Some final thoughts from me, who started this debate:

Bring and Buy… This is a ton of work for organizers, especially paperwork. (I run the B&B at Congress of Gamers, a 200 person two-day gaming fest in Rockville, Maryland USA.) I would absolutely shudder at doing it for anything like that for more than 250 attendees.

A lot of people have complained that dealers buy stuff in the flea markets, and then resell it in their dealer areas. MY biggest question to this is: SO WHAT? A flea vendor sells something, so he is happy. A dealer sees an opportunity for arbitrage, so he is happy, even as he assumes some risk. I cannot fathom why anyone has a problem with this! Some of these dealers are spending thousands of dollars just to get there, and they deserve our continued support.

The third biggest concern is a nighttime offering of Wally's (my proposal) and how it would impact people. Geez, it seems as if I am slaughtering a sacred cow! Some people are too tired, too hungry, don't want to drive home in the dark, it would kill open gaming, etc, etc, etc. I honestly cannot believe how selfish people are! Every one of those items mentioned concerns an individual's attitudes, and not what is best for the convention as a whole.

Here are the facts: The number of dealers is declining. One of the reasons mentioned for the decline is the dearth of customers who are at the flea market while it (Wally's) is open (2/3rds of the time, by the way….), and not at the dealer area. My opinion, which has been validated by many others, is that dealers will continue to leave from this and other conventions unless something is done. Another opinion is that if dealers continue to leave, attendance at conventions of this type will continue to suffer. I've hard from dealers off line who simply stopped coming to shows because of this reason. How does anyone benefit from that?

I had proposed a solution that seemed to make the dealers happy, inconvenience some people, and for buyers give them a lot more time to shop and buy stuff. On the other hand, if we just leave things they way they are, we will be continue to see the dealer area shrink, and be left wondering what happened to the convention in a few years.

I know change is scary, but something must be done.

Thanks for reading…

Daniel

Daniel,
You have a way of dismissing many valid concerns by calling them personal concerns. Many are not personal concerns but valid opinions.
If you looked at the list of dealers it's still quite healthy. And thats at Fall In.
When they moved Hcon down south the dealer area suffered due to the move.
Something DOES NOT have to be done. It's working fine as is.
My opinion from someone who has been going to these cons for over 30 years.

LVG: I think the dealer decline at H-con started at Valley Forge and continued during the move South. I do not think you can attribute it only to the move South. It has a lot more to do with the very high cost of the booths/spaces.

RE: Something DOES NOT have to be done. It's working fine as is.

So the factual decline in the number of dealers is not a problem, in your opinion, and the dealers who no longer attend for many of the reasons I stated is their problem..

The list of dealers may seem healthy, but it was healthier last year. I suppose everyone is healthy until they are dead, right?

>Here are the facts: The number of dealers is declining. One of the reasons mentioned for the decline is the dearth of customers who are at the flea market while it (Wally's) is open (2/3rds of the time, by the way….), and not at the dealer area.

Just saying this doesn't make it true. There are also a lot of gamers involved in GAMES during the time the dealers hall is open too. Someone may claim the dealer hall is suffering *specifically* due to the flea market being open, but thus far there are no facts to back this up that I have seen.

1) Just because someone buys something in the flea market doesn't mean they won't also buy something in the dealer hall.

2) The majority of the time the stuff being sold in the flea market isn't available in the dealer hall in the first place.

3) A huge number of people that sell stuff in the flea market take that money and spend it in the dealer hall. Myself included. In fact I make it a point to buy something at 3-4 dealers at every show regardless of what I want or need. I do this to help the hobby and those dealers that I like or want to support. Not that I need to force myself to do this, there are plenty of things I am always looking for!

4) There are many forces at work to impact dealers, the existence of a flea market isn't the sole or even the major factor. The economy, the internet, weather, and dealers products, prices, attitude and layout also have huge impacts. Another HUGE factor people often overlook? If the same dealers are at the same shows selling the same product time and time and time again there comes a point when some people might not have the interest or the need to keep buying their stuff. The more one dimensional and limited a dealers products are the more this will have an impact.

5) Shows without flea markets at all also see big drops in dealer hall traffic after the initial rush in the morning. There are surges over lunch and before they close at night, but there are absolutely drop offs. Why does this happen when there are conventions with no flea markets competing? I've seen this on the West Coast, at Little Wars, at Origins, and many smaller local conventions. Most people don't attend conventions to shop for 8 hours. They hit the dealers and anything else of interest, usually at peak hours along with everyone else.

The list could go on and on, but suffice to say it may be your opinion that the flea market has an impact, but so far the impact appears to be more good than bad.