"Early Renaissance units" Topic

So want to get into the italian wars. I was thinking of doing early period.

So more Medieval weapons less pike and shot.

So would that mean separate units based on weapons

So instead of trecio you would have separte units of pikes and arquebuses? With some pure mele cav and some shot cav? some crossbows?

Check out the Pike and Plunder blog where there's lot's of OOBs and some pretty pictures too.

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Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
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No shot cav. While some mounted crossbow and arquebus existed, there is afaik no record on their mounted usage in any battle – though they might have seen action in skirmishes.

Crossbow was an unusual weapon already, arquebus was already more common.

The main question you face is the scale (15 or 28mm) and the army (an Italian faction like Milan, Papal, Naples, Venice or French, Spanish, Imperial). French and Spanish will include Landsknecht and Swiss more often then not – roughly at the same time we also have the Swabian war between, well, Landsknechts and Swiss. You might concentrate on a specific campaign or even battle, or go with generic forces.

Once you decide on the theatre and army, you can take a look at the system – do you want a skirmish system or a battle system, and will you want individual bases or grouped bases. The latter are far better to depict formations. Many systems use compatible basing sizes (eg. DBR, FOGR, Impetus), and most also offer books to compose armies (FOGR: Trade & Treachery, Impetus Extra 1) which can be usefull even when you do not use the actual system.

You may make your decisions also dependent on the available minis. TAG covers the era, as do a couple of other companies.

I was thinknig of Italian forces and battle, TAG will be my main source, with specials from other companies.

Vexillia what rules do you use for those battles and units, I love the spectical og some of the huge units.

You can't get away from pike. As early as 1495 the French had Swiss pike as the mainstay of their infantry. Following their decent into Italy, every state took up the pike to some degree, though not always 'Italian' in nature (mercenary).

Sorry, but you can't get away from it, unless you are going to collect a force such as Giovani's Band Nere (300 mounted arquebus and 3000 shot) you cannot do an Italian Wars amy without pike.

Perhaps you should look at a Pre-Italian Wars Condottiere army. No pike, but no arquebus either.

Is you decision based on collecting from one source? If so you are asking a lot. I've been collecting IW for some time. It is, consequently my most eclectic collection.

Don't overlook Old Glory. They have Swiss, Landsknechts, Italians, and Spanish.

Joe Collins

olicana I don't have problem with pikes. but I was looking for a period of the renesance before the pike and shot formations took over. A time when pikes were it's own units, and shot were its own units.

Hi Gun Freak,

That is Italian Wars. Except for the Spanish colunela formations we are very much talking separate units.

Swiss, for the most part, employed 10% shot to pike. Landsknechts employed 7% or less. Everyone else followed suit. I don't even bother putting pike and shot together, rather believing shot can be 'factored in', because their numbers were so low.

Italian Wars organisations are why I went this way, TYW and ECW being very much 'multi-functional' units.

But, in big battles, it's generally down to pikes in the end. It is the predominant factor in most battles – either winning with them, or defeating them.

Vexillia what rules do you use for those battles and units, I love the spectical og some of the huge units.

James uses Piquet's Band of Brothers but Pike & Plunder will work with any period rule set.

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Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
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I orderd some Artizan landskneckt

That way I can just make a generic merc unit, that can be used as I see fit.

Oh an Vexillia, who makes those Gendarmes you have in sevral of your posts?

GF,

Actually, I'm now using Hell Broke Loose (kinda by me). If you go to my blog you'll find my email address (I'm not putting it here) in the side bar. Drop me an email and I'll post you a copy. They are a Piquetlite / FoB style set of rules.

link

GF, if you are talking about the Gendarmes on the P&P site (my Gendarmes) they are Foundry. If you are talking about others, well?

Also follow the link on the Pike and Plunder site to Olicanalad's (James Roach's) site. He has not mentioned it, but he has one of the most awesome Italian Wars collections I have seen. I have used a mix of Foundry, TAG, and Old Glory for my armies. I use the Pike and Shotte rules from Warlord because I enjoy them, but have seen comments from others questioning whether they give the right historical feel. I have also used FOG:R as mentioned by Puster, but find the game mechanics a little "labyrinthine" in my view. I would defer to the excellent advice given by Puster, Olicanalad, and Vexillia as they are more knowledgeable than I on historical aspects. I do thoroughly enjoy this period – just need to get a DaVinci tank model to round it out :-) Good luck!

Hell Broke Loose gives a great game.

"Don't overlook Old Glory. They have Swiss, Landsknechts, Italians, and Spanish."

Their Swiss and Italian are very late 15th c./ early IW, their landsknechts are of the later period, archetypical landsknecht look.

See a 1506 print of the Battle of Fornovo 1495, for units of Italians with spear and oval shield. Only the French had pikemen at this battle.

MIRROR SITE:
A 1506 print of the Battle of Fornovo 1495

Druzhina
16th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

ho hum

Perhaps you should look at a Pre-Italian Wars Condottiere army. No pike, but no arquebus either.

Pike and arquebus (handguns) were plentiful in Pre-Italian Wars "Condottiere" armies. My Italian (and more up to date English) historical sources mention *Italian* infantry armed with pikes employed by Milan or Florence.

Handgunners (Schioppettieri) were employed alongside crossbowmen at the battle of Anghiari in 1440, for example. Milan employed them in great numbers in the latter half of the 1400s. Armies that fought for the Papal States were increasingly armed with arquebus after 1456. Venice armed well over a quarter of their militia defending fortified towns and villages in the eastern and northern areas of "Terra Firma" against Ottoman raids with firearms by the 1470s. The examples can go on and on.

In many respects, the Italian armies in the so-called Condottieri period were ahead of their ultramontane counterparts in equipment, tactics and technological developments. That is not to suggest, however, that there were no military developments outside of Italy that had no influence on military developments in the Italian Peninsula--one can look to the Swiss Reislaufer and German Landsknechte as prime examples. But to suggest that Italians employed no pike armed infantry and had no infantry armed with firearms (and therefore implicitly militarily backwards) is simply untrue.