"Russian T-64s and T-72s moving into Ukraine" Topic

For those of you that are interested in the types of vehicles the Russians, and Russian-backed separatists are using in Ukraine, here's the most detailed account I've read of the types of vehicles moving in the convoys, as reported by the OSCE:

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It is interesting to see a mix of both T-64s and T-72s, plus other vehicles moving as a group.

In the past, I've just read primarily about T-72s, and/or T-80s. Hadn't seen the T-64 mentioned before, that I can recall.

Yesterday, I saw what appeared to be BMP-3s grouped on a road, in column, as well. Not sure where they were located.

So, looks like anyone wanting to create a pro-Russian force for the tabletop has more choices now.

From the one picture it looks like they need remedial tank driving courses.

Not much baggage-any soft skins reported?

Yes, lots of trucks on the move, and some towing guns too.

This whole invasion of the Ukraine thing just shows you that protracted pain over a long period of time can be ignored. At the end of the day, what's the difference between an invasion that takes 24 hours and one that takes a year? Nothing.

But the world accepts it.

Reminds me of the frog and the boiling water story.

It's not the latest kit, but is enough to cause no end of havoc.

It's kit which the Ukrainians also have, and hence can be plausibly denied…

If you have a tank and the other guy doesn't, it doesn't matter a whole lot if it's new kit or not.

Any tank beats no tank, after all.

…It's kit which the Ukrainians also have, and hence can be plausibly denied…

Having been caught out on at least two previous occasions with equipment not in Ukrainian arsenals on display (late model T-72, Korea missile components), I suspect the little green men with no insignia now operating visibly are being a little more careful. They have stated an intention to take Sloviansk, Kramatorsk and Mariupol (as well as Donetsk airport) so I'd expect to see a significant offensive quite soon.

…sorry, auto correct – Kornet, not Korea

Actually, OSCE reported some tanks on 8.11, and trucks column on 9.11 within rebel-held territory. It has not reported them crossing the border. There're daily reports of OSCE monitoring on their site, and I really suggest them as a reading. They're basically making a very thorough observation of checkpoints – they're even counting numbers of people in an out of the Ukraine. They've also tried drones for border observation.

What we have here, is that yahoo news again jumping to conclusions – you have Ukrainians, claiming that tanks are moving from Russia into Ukriane with no proof, and OSCE reportings of some equipment moved near Donetsk.
However, there's nothing out of the ordinary – rebels are reporting most of the military activity in the CTO zone from Ukrainian side and a bit from their side. It is a dily routine in a conflict zone…still looks like tension is increasing.

There're daily reports of OSCE monitoring on their site

Only at two border points though

Ukrainians, claiming that tanks are moving from Russia into Ukriane with no proof, and OSCE reportings of some equipment moved near Donetsk.

The number of reports are worrying, not just those by the government, but also on social media. There is definitely a significant mobility taking place, within separatist held areas, and voiced claims that they will now take several cities are doing nothing to reduce those tensions.

Rebel held territory is "across the border" IN Ukraine, is it not, or has Putin already annexed that as well?

Depends on your point of view :-)

To Ukrainians, it is Ukrainian territory all the way to the Russian border.

However the separatists claim that their first referendum means that the disputed area is no longer Ukrainian land, and as such Ukrainian armed forces are the invaders. The fact that this land is not recognised as such by anyone other than themselves (and possibly vaguely acknowledged by Russia), and at this time has no agreed deliniation(border control, globally recognised government, etc) seems not to matter.

Most Ukrainians still see Crimea as having been stolen by Russia.

Well, of course, though international law, and most non-Russian countries don't recognize that.

Here's the latest on the region, with more Russian units seen entering "Ukraine":

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Using their logic, perhaps someone should work to free Leningrad, and the Kola peninsula. Heck, might as well free Moscow too, while we're at it.

If you think that all the heavy armor can come only from Russia, you may check one of the depots, where captured armor is put into operation…
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BTW, T-64 "Bulat" were used by Ukrainian army in the east and several of them ended in rebels' hand.
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Russians haven't used T-64 in a long time and given their attitude to "storage," most existing versions would be rusting away in a paddock somewhere requiring extensive overhaul.

BBC this morning:

"Heavy artillery fire has rocked the east Ukrainian city of Donetsk, the industrial hub held by pro-Russian separatist rebels.

Shelling can been heard in the city almost daily but Wednesday's bombardment was the strongest since the weekend, AFP news agency reports.

It was unclear whether the fire came from besieging government forces or the rebels themselves or both.

There are also reports of fighting near the rebel-held city of Luhansk."

The section I have highlighted in bold has been the situation for most of this conflict. Both sides accuse the other, but it is generally unclear (and not always obvious) exactly who is shelling what. Shelling has occurred at Donetsk airport, held by government forces, yet the separatists claim it is the government forces doing the shelling.

The area around the north of Donetsk itself is under attack by both sides, and I suspect being repeatedly shelled by both sides. However with publically stated intentions to claim Mariupol, Kramatorsk and Slovyansk from the government, and a pretty clear indication that heavy weaponry is being moved back into the 30km corridor, I would expect to see a notable escalation in the next week or so.

Airport is under constant fire from both sides, as government forces are still holding in underground complexes, while rebels control most of the ruins/buildings above ground. Luckily there's no civilian population there…

There's a lot of public statements flowing in the air, and the build-up from both sides is considerable. Rebels leaders announced yesterday that they're not going to attack first, but as we see in this conflict it is very unclear who goes first exactly…

"They all started it when they fired back"

Kindergarten

Having said all that…

US Gen Philip Breedlove, Nato's top commander, has now categorically stated "We have seen columns of Russian equipment, primarily Russian tanks, Russian artillery, Russian air defence systems and Russian combat troops entering into Ukraine".

Still waiting to see exactly who it was saw them, or whether NATO is again relying on hearsay reports and social media (sigh), but at this time Nato said they observed columns of Russian tanks, artillery, and combat troops crossing into Ukraine in the past two days

Anyone care to do a positive ID on this tank?

A column of unidentified tanks was seen on a road near the rebel-held town of Shakhtarsk [just easy of Donetsk] on Monday

(You always need to be careful with any media photos, as they do have a nasty tendency to use stock shots rather than true reportage photos)

Surprisingly, there's nothing on NATO site anymore…or never was.
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In Russian translation of his press-conference Mr. General says that Nato observations are confirmed by OSCE and we know that OSCE so far has never claimed that military columns they have observed in Donetsk are Russian Army.

From BBC:

<<Gen Breedlove did not specify how many troops, vehicles or weapons were seen. A Nato official confirmed to the BBC that Nato "assessed" that the equipment and troops were Russian in origin.>>

Therefore, I'm suggesting again to wait till morning and see the developments/facts.

Well of course the equipment is Russian in origin. They're not using M1 Abrams here.

I could be wrong, but reading it again, I would still determine that the NATO claim, and the OSCE reports, are two separate things.

I'm not surprised any longer…they're the same.

<<"Across the last two days we have seen the same thing that OSCE is reporting. We have seen columns of Russian equipment – primarily Russian tanks, Russian artillery, Russian air defence systems and Russian combat troops – entering into Ukraine," Breedlove said.

He added: "We do not have a good picture at this time of how many. We agree that there are multiple columns that we have seen.">>

from here: link

I'm afraid he is fallen in the same trap of "everybody is writing about it on Facebook". With information flow like that, we might indeed end up with world war in no time.

I think there may be a convenient use of the word 'Russian', as in Russian-manufacture rather than Russian army?

However if they do have evidence of columns actually crossing the border, whether those columns are Russian Army or separatist units that have been laager in over the border in Russian territory, then I would suggest Russia (by which of course I mean the political structure, not the Russian people) has some explaining to do. In fact, that explaining may be to the Russian people as well.

I'm more concerned with word "entering", as OSCE actually didn't observe that. They haven't seen the troops in the columns they've noticed. Videos of the convoys appeared on rebel information site on the same day.
In reality, rebels already have dozens of Grad/D-30/tanks, so I wonder why all this hype now? If you look at the conflict map, there's less activity in Lugansk region, and fierce fighting in Donetsk. As both armies are at the same command, if I was in their shoes, I'd move the troops and equipment where I need them to be…
Unless somebody presents a proof that this equipment is indeed coming from Russia, and not repaired/captured/bought from Ukrainian government troops and then moved into position, I'm a bit sceptical….

As both armies are at the same command

I'd question that, as I think the whole thing is actually far more fractured, with lots of small independent commands. 'Someone' brought them together briefly but I think it has broken once more into many different small power struggles.

The Ukrainian side is in a similar position, due to a poor command structure and multiple volunteer groups.