"From Dark Ages to Medieval rule sets" Topic

Alongside collecting and buying 1/72 World War 2 figures, I've become interested in the Dark Ages and Medieval periods of gaming. What are the most historical or alternately most FUN rulesets to game with 1/72 size miniatures or so. I'd like to use individual basing for figures. I'm looking at Caesars Crusaders cavalry sets and also Vikings from different manufacturers, and of course their antagonists when the time comes.

I'm looking for some variability in the tactics and weapons systems used, if there is a ruleset that takes these things seriously. I wouldn't mind "special" units rules either, if there is a historical basis as to why. Detailed melee combat, archery, and war machine rules would be welcome as well.

Saga for fun, but not for historical accuracy or "taking things seriously".

Agreed with SAGA for fun.

Lion Rampant is the latest craze; single basing friendly, requiring similar numbers to a Saga warband.

The new DBA 3 may fit the bill. Changes have differentiated troop types and generally made the Dark Ages and Medieval periods much more interesting. You may see a blog post or two in the next few days outlining this.

Joe Collins

Sword and Spear is excellent. Impetus or basic impetus also very good. DBA3 looks great. Lots of choice.

Captains and Kings – Also includes Siege rules as well. Play it with any figures, around 10 per unit.

Here's info and follow the link for AARs.

link

Didn't realize DBA used individual basing.

DBA and Sword and Spear use group basing, but I have my figures on magnet bases, and use a movement tray when I play Sword & Spear. Then I can use the figures individually for games like SAGA and Lion Rampant.

Your "want" list pretty much describes our rules. link

If you're looking for detailed weapons,Special troops,
detailed combat etc then DBA 3 is not for you.

Basically it groups troops by type so Samurai and Huscarls
are classed as Blades and Sumerian spearmen and Fyrd fight and move the same as Greek Hoplites.

Yes it's new and there's been a few changes,spears now come in loose and solid flavours or fast and solid,I forget which,but it's not the be-all and end all of rules despite what some will tell you.Think chess with more pieces.

For smallish scale actions with lots of hand to hand Ed's
Captains and Kings or the free version of Swordplay are worth a try as is Battle-troll from Pulp Action Library.

Mark's Sword and Spear are well thought of,inexpensive and have a very good forum that'll answer any questions

May sound harsh on DBA but a pawn is a pawn whether it's Irish or Indian.Popular in competitions where you turn up and play against different opponents though.

Clash of Empires is worth a looksee :-)

SAGA meets most of your criteria. Individually based figures. Covers Dark Ages and Medieval. Battleboard concept gives variety and different tactical options.

Above all, it is great fun!

Great War Ace: Your set of rules seems to be pretty comprehensive. I'm interested in how you deal with different types of units in armies (cavalry, artillery, different weapons and armor)?

What kinds of attributes do units have in your rules?

As for the options, Clash of Empires seems to be pretty detailed with lots of different unit values, and SAGA seems to be a more detailed skirmish game with fewer miniatures.

As for the figures I might be collecting, I'm leaning towards 1/72 plastic figures. 15mm would allow for more units on the table though. I'm yet to find a "favorite" era among the insane amount of choices, and don't yet know which armies to go for at start. I'm going to be collecting all the minis and painting them.

I am mainly interested in the interplay of weapons and unit types, and the way the affect the tactics of the battlefield, the era is a secondary concern at the moment.

For example, in WW II battles I enjoy the effect different weapons systems have and how they change the flow of the battle, and how everything has a place in the tactics used. Sometimes though, succeeding takes more guts than the other guys have. The human element vs. technology.

I should read up on ancient and medieval battles to get an understanding of how things worked. Any stand-out books folks could recommend?

Something detailed? How about the venerable WRG rules. They do exactly what you want. Detailed combat based on weapons and troop type. You can get 1st through 5th edition for free.
link

A more streamlined version called "The Die is Cast" by VVV would also do what you ask. 3vwargames.co.uk/rules2.htm

I should read up on ancient and medieval battles to get an understanding of how things worked. Any stand-out books folks could recommend?

"Lost Battles" by Dr. Phil Sabin.

Lost Battles is great for battles of the classical ancient period, but it doesn't cover dark ages or medieval warfare.

As for the figures I might be collecting, I'm leaning towards 1/72 plastic figures. 15mm would allow for more units on the table though. I'm yet to find a "favorite" era among the insane amount of choices, and don't yet know which armies to go for at start. I'm going to be collecting all the minis and painting them.

There's no reason why you can't have as many units on the table in 1/72 as 15mm.

The main decisions you need to make are :
Skirmish or big battle.
Individual basing or unit / element basing
(although you can combine the above, as blooddave says, using sabot bases or movement trays).
Rules covering a wide period (allowing you to learn one set of generic rules to cover all of your ancient / medieval gaming) or period specific rules.
You need to narrow your requirements down so you can receive more meaningful and useful suggestions.
Then there are further considerations as to the type of game you prefer, for example IGOUGO where you can move everything on your turn, or a game with a more interactive turn sequence and command and control restrictions (representing battlefield friction).

Lost Battles apparently has a board game that comes with it, at least some editions.

DBM and DBA come from a long line of development, it seems, and they might have some of what I'm looking for (different unit types and interplay between them). DBM requires hundreds of figures though, so I wouldn't get a game in too quickly, or never.

WRG is no longer supported, aside from fansites here or there. Could get the 6th edition rules from a site I found though.

SAGA is a skirmish ruleset, but I was looking for something more epic in scope. Could be a good starting point though.

Lion Rampant seems to be a simple skirmish ruleset too.

If I found a ton of painted miniatures for cheap, I would try DBM. It has an epic scope and lots of different unit types to do battle with.

If you are looking at big battles rules, then you might want to consider my Sword & Spear rules. You can get by with a lot less figures than DBM, but it covers the same sort of scope. You could even try it out without figures, using units printed out onto card (from the Junior General wesite, for example).
There is a summary of reviews of Sword & Spear here:
link

Marshal Mark:

Can I mix and match different types of a-historical forces against each other? Just in case I get lazy about studying history… :)

Yes you can, as you can with pretty much any ancient & medieval wargames rules. This is one advantage of a generic set of rules covering a wide period. We tend to play historic match-ups, but you can play any army against any other army if you want to.

Lost Battles apparently has a board game that comes with it, at least some editions.

"Lost Battles" contains the miniatures rules designed by Phil Sabin as used at many shows on the UK show circuit. The board game is just the same rules converted to board game format.

I've got to admit I'm still pretty much shopping around, and looking at various interests. Last night I was looking at Napoleonic rulesets, and today the American War of Independence.

I didn't expect to find interest in much else beyond WW2.

The Roman Empire is pretty fascinating stuff, along with their antagonists. Medieval knights (especially Teutonic with their magnificent uniforms) are an interest too. I also find the early gunpowder stuff interesting. Too many interests currently!

It also depends on what you mean by 'medieval'. Are we looking at the early 14th C. in northern Europe (France/England/Scotland/Low Countries) where in essence battles have spears, bows and men-at-arms or the late 15th C. in Southern Europe with quite a variety of mounted and dismounted troops? Big actions (few and far between) or small clashes?

Small skirmishes are probably the best option for now given my painting skills and current frequency of getting minis done.

When I think of medieval I picture crusaders or knights on mounts going against pagan infidels. I look for variety in whatever I'm going to do, and I mentioned wanting different weapons systems to deploy on the battlefield, but skirmish rules don't usually focus on them. I was thinking war machines and primitive cannons and such, but I don't even know if there are minis available for such things. This would indicate the need for a more elaborate set of rules and larger armies. Skirmish games would be a starters compromise for now.

I've also looked at rule sets for different eras, but medieval and earlier holds a magic of sorts, mysterious and unknown things to discover. I don't want straight fantasy since a lot of stuff I've played in the past has covered that. I like some historical accuracy and at least the feeling that I'm recreating history as a part of gaming. I've got to get some books on these subjects. That will probably decide for me when I start reading about these eras.

War of the Roses seems like an interesting era for war gaming, since there are some early artillery pieces and heavily armored knights (and fairly developed weapons) mixed together in the battles, but I know little else about this conflict. Could be worth studying up on this, it might be my first medieval gaming project. What was going on in the rest of Europe at the time?

DBA3.0 is an excellent simulation of medieval warfare. Its uses apparently abstract mechinics (though ones that would make perfect sense to a real medieval commander) to represent the differences in tactics and ablities of a wide variety of troop types through out the period. Troops that fought in a similar fashion are grouped together in one category regardless of nominal name of period. They are not pawns but very well thought representations of actual capabilties.

The game centers around manuver and command control which are almost always more important than minor differences in weapons and armor – as Henry V or Alexander the Great would be the first to point out.

TomT