"Hougoumont, La Haie Sainte or Plancenoit? " Topic

Which of the following locations do the members feel was the most important to the outcome of the Battle of Waterloo?

A. Hougoumont
B. La Haie Sainte
C. Plancenoit

I know which of these I would choose.

John

P.S. I posted this question on another thread, but thought it might be interesting to pose as a topic, especially as the subject appears in the new book by Nick Lipscombe, Waterloo – The Decisive Victory.

Haven't read Lipscombe's new book (is it out yet?), but the question is perhaps less straightforward than it may seem:

Hougoumont was key if you follow Wellington of course, but only ever a diversion for the French – albeit a botched one: The flanking attack which the Duke feared was never in Napoleon's plans.

La Haie Sainte stalled and diverted French attacks for a large part of the day; once it had finally fallen, things got really desperate for Wellington's centre.

Plancenoit was the Prussians' objective obviously, and important enough to Napoleon to divert some of his Guard to recapture it.

- Possible conclusions: Without La Haie Sainte Wellington might not have held that long, and with Plancenoit held the French army might have withdrawn in good order?

(quickly ducks behind parapet again)

@Musketier

Waterloo – The Decisivie Victory is on sale. The book is not exclusively by Nick Lipscombe, but a series of chapters written by different authors who cover various themes. In his chapter Nick Lipscombe argues that La Haie Sainte was the most important bastion. I disagree. I believe that the fighting at Plancenoit had the greatest effect on the outcome of the battle.

John,
I think I would agree with you.

Napoleon always anticipated that Hougoumont would contain Reille's corps, or at least Jerome, and perhaps a portion of Foy's division.

La Haie Sainte, ultimately attracted the attentions of perhaps three regiments [six or seven battalions] from D'Erlon's corps before it fell in the early evening.

Whereas the defense of Plancenoit had the adverse effect upon Napoleon's plans of ultimately diverting, three divisions of infantry [VI Corps, and the Young Guard], and two of cavalry [Subervie and Domont]. Troops that had been expected to be fighting on the ridge.

The location of Plancenoit, squarely in the rear of the right center of Napoleon's initial position, and within cannon shot of the primary line of retreat of the French army, must have had an adverse effect upon the morale of the French troops. Particularly, those who would have been aware of the deliberate advance of the Prussian forces in their immediate rear.

Also, once the Prussians began their advance towards Plancenoit, that movement would have necessitated the realignment, and/or repositioning of the Guard Light Cavalry and Milhaud's heavy cavalry – there simply wasn't room for them, if Lobau was going to achieve an effective defense, and link with the right of D'Erlon's corps [Durutte's Division]. As it was, they ended up charging the ridge between Hougoumont and La Haie Sainte – perhaps it was the Prussian movement that precipitated that movement in the first place.

My 2 cents, FWIW

I'm with John and Ligniere, although it's a bit of a silly question. If Hougoumont had fallen, or if LHS had fallen earlier, the impact is not that clear – as after d'Erlon's defeat and Prussian arrival Napoleon did not have the infantry to exploit any advantage.

In my usual way, I have responded at length with my penn-orth in the earlier topic;
TMP link

Hougoumont an invaluable diversion to protect the right flank of the Allied Army, but, once Napoleon dropped any flanking manoeuvre, not indispensible.

LHS more critical as so close to the Allied centre, but, so long as it held out in the early battle, even its loss could be compensated.

Plancenoit for drawing off so many desperately needed French, for turning a defeat into a rout, for breaking the French morale in the end.

But I would still add Papelotte/Smohain/La Haye to that list. Wellington was only asking for one corps to support his left. Anything more was a godsend. If that area had fallen, no Ziethen to link up, no movement of reserves to centre. Blucher in Plancenoit would have been the one out on a limb.

Great question though. Top. Plancenoit, second Papelotte etc, third LHS, fourth Hougoumont

Plancenoit

Still a bit of a strange question as you cannot single out a single element that is THE key to the battle in my opion. Also Plancenoit is of a different "nature than the other two, Hougoumont and La Haye Sainte were positions chosen by wellington as defensive points whereas Plancenoit was just a village were neither Napoleon or wellington expected heavy fighting. It is of course the key to the battle as the Prussians attacked here and effectively outflankend N's position. You could argue however that if Plancenoit was not so heavily defended by the French, the Prussians might have advanced more rapidly thus ending the battle for Napoleon even quicker. To go further on your question, I do think that Hougomont was quite an important feature in W. 's line of battle as it really sucked in a lot of French Troops (Jérome's division was the largest in the army) and they achieved very little. As a wargamer i alway tend to "screen" Hougomont with say a briagade and use as much troops as I can on other parts of the battlefield (capturing La Haye Sainte for example). But like I said in the beginning every element of that battle had it's own importance.

@Marcel1809

As I said in my earlier post, this is not really my question, it is Nick Lipscombe's and has been from his chapter within a new book on Waterloo. Of course, you are correct in stating that each element of the battle contributed to the outcome. It is merely my view that Plancenoit, not La Haie Sainte, had the most dramatic effect on the outcome of the battle.

Nelson contributed more to the ultimate defeat of Napoleon than Wellington. Discuss.

Grouchy's Wing was too small and too distant for any intervention to have altered the outcome, by the time he was advised to march to the sound of the guns. Discuss

Wellington would never had marched to Wavre had positions been reversed. Discuss.

Obviously the question posed in the title, in a sense, is an academic exercise. The three (four?) sites all played a part, each indispensible, but Plancenoit proved the most significant.

But posing such questions does lead to the most fascinating discussions. Must get that book (I've bought everything else so far, even Cornwall)

@deadhead

I've received my copy of Waterloo – The Decisive Victory. I must say that it is very well presented, and there are some 'interesting' elements (I think Andrew Field has done an excellent job in his chapter), but this is another Anglo-centric take on the campaign, with some chapters looking hugely out-of-date when you consider the amount of new material which has been made available recently. That aside, it is certainly a worthwhile addition to your Waterloo Collection.

John

I think we also tend to conceive of Plancenoit in a much different position on the battlefield than it actually was – I know I have been guilty of this.
I think the conception is that it is on the flank of the French positions, as if the French position was a line with a refused flank – whereas, in reality, it was very much in the rear of the French first and second lines. Plancenoit is much closer to La Belle Alliance than Papelotte. Certainly, it was on the flank of the Imperial Guard, but they were closer to Reille's position than the right flank [Durutte].

By the time the French were desperately defending Plancenoit, they had already been forced back over a mile from their initial defensive positions close to the woods near Frischermont and Smohain, which had originally formed the extreme right flank of the French positions.

A very good point. Plancenoit is noticeably south east of La Belle Alliance. Oddly it is also invisible from the field, unless you climb the mound (which I suspect was not an option to DoW) or count the spire of the church (which is a replacement anyway). The point then is that very few French soldiers facing the Allied line would have much idea what was happening there, beyond a lot of smoke and bangs. "Nous sommes trahis" and the flight must have reflected the Prussian attack under Ziethen far more than Pirch and Bulow's assault.

The point about Plancenoit was finding that they were almost surrounded meant no hope of rallying to fight another day

"Wellington would never had marched to Wavre had positions been reversed. Discuss."

If Napoleon had followed Blucher's army after Ligny, Wellington would certainly have fallen back to Waterloo to assemble. But where would he go from there – towards Wavre or back to Brussels? My thought is Brussels because the road net would have given more freedom of movement than the tracks to Wavre.

None of the three locations had the decisive key in the defeat of the French army.

So go on then? You cannot leave us hanging! Quatre Bras? Papelotte and the buildings around (I placed second only to Plancenoit). Even Lasne left unoccupied by a single French Hussar?

Michael Westman, could not agree more. Big question where after Brussels, because the Prussians are surely gone now? The tracks to Wavre were terrible (and risky) but Blucher took the remains of three army corps across them. In all seriousness, that was almost an insane risk and DoW had more sense. He would never have done that, I suspect. Politics were different for him.

Good job it worked out the way it did, though. Blucher threw sixes all day…………it can happen.

There appears to be some confusion. The question I posed was: Which of the following locations do members feel was the most important to the outcome of the Battle of Waterloo?

A. Hougoumont
B. La Haie Sainte
C. Plancenoit

As stated, I've asked this question in response to the chapter in Nick Lipscombe's new book. Neither Colonel Lipscombe or myself state that any of these locaions were 'decisive' in the defeat of the French. (Only Brendan Simms makes that claim in his 'new' book on the defence La Haie Sainte.)

John

John, I would say Plancenoit had the greatest effect (to the outcome, in that without the Prussians caving in Napoleon's flank the French defeat would have been a withdraw, not a rout), but I don't think any of the locations compared to d'Erlon's initial repulse which to me pretty much determined that Napoleon was not going to win any kind of substantial victory.

@Michael

I think that is another topic in itself. Did Napoleon really have a chance of victory in the face of two armies at Mont St. Jean (Waterloo)?

Perhaps we should start that thread?

John

My answer to your last question is Clear John, NO. With the Prussians on the flank and Grouchy out of reach it became almost impossible to win. Maybe Napoleon had a slim chance of extricating himself but certainly a decisive victory was out of the question I think.

Definitely worth a new topic I think.

So much depends on "the time of day"! Against DoW's Allied Army and the single leading IV Corps of Prussians, especially if Napoleon had only considered the risk of a flank attack and put some light troops and cavalry out around Lasne, might have won the day. Against DoW and two Prussian Corps (effectively all that did intervene before the collapse) with more on the way. No hope.

So maybe the question is, at what stage did it become hopeless?