"The Last Time China and America Went to War" Topic

"There was nothing good about the last Sino-American War, or what we today call the Korean War. The experience of this war, now nearly forgotten, should serve as a grim lesson for policy makers in both Washington and Beijing.

In November 1950, China and the United States went to war. Thirty-six thousand Americans died, along with upwards of a quarter million Chinese, and half a million or more Koreans. If the United States was deeply surprised to find itself at war with the People's Republic of China, a country that hadn't even existed the year before, it was even more surprised to find itself losing that war. The opening Chinese offensive, launched from deep within North Korea, took U.S. forces by complete operational surprise. The U.S.-led United Nations offensive into North Korea was thrown back, with the U.S. Army handed its worst defeat since the American Civil War.

The legacies of this war remain deep, complex and underexamined. Memory of the Korean War in the United States is obscured by the looming shadows of World War II and Vietnam. China remembers the conflict differently, but China's position in the world has changed in deep and fundamental ways since the 1950s. Still, as we consider the potential for future conflict between China and the United States, we should try to wring what lessons we can from the first Sino-American war…"

Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

Clearly this side of the pond we are taught wrong; I thought it was the United Nations that went to war including numerous free countries. I suppose WW2 was USA vs Germany & Japan.

So with a WWII based army we were killing them at about 10 to 1. Wonder what the ratio would be today?

Vaughan is right, we must not forget that there were several allies there!

This article kind of neglects to mention that the Korean War started before November with the invasion of South Korea from the north. It wasn't just the Chinese in the war either!

My father was a combat wounded Korean War vet. He wouldn't talk about his experiences for a long time, but at least today he is sharing what he can remember.

Of course there is a whole other question. Would the Chinese have gotten involved if the allies hadn't pushed so close to their border? The North Koreans were almost defeated at that point, and then it became a whole new bloody fight.

Very true … it was the UN … not only the US. When I was on the DMZ in the US Army '84 & '85. We still flew the UN flag on the Guard Posts and Warrior Base. And as far as

The legacies of this war remain deep, complex and underexamined.

We studied/examined it … when you are that close to North-South border, we knew our lives may have depended on it … The signs along the border along the Z were in 3 languages … Korean, English and Chinese … And even though the US was unprepared for war with the NKs and later massive amounts of Chinese "volunteers" in '50. As noted the overall body count was 10-1. The first PRC units that crossed into North Korea and then attacked UN units [yes, the majority were US], within 6 months + or – most of those PRC forces were pretty much destroyed. Which brings up the PRC trump card. Their massive amount of available troops/bodies. Plus their willingness to take massive losses … I believe that card remains today. And something else the US learned … never let the military get so small, under trained, etc. as we saw what happened in 1950. And as noted the US took a lot of looses and defeats. The captured US unit guidons, flags etc., are still on display in the NK. I hope the powers in charge of the US government over the years remembers all this … Those of us who served in the ROK after the war do, and note, there is no peace with the NKs. It's only a very unsteady truce … And it is thought that if the NKs attacked across the DMZ today that most likely the PRC would not support or assist them. And attempt to stop such a potential disaster started by their fickle "ally" to the South. The PRC has many more economic ties, etc. with the US. The hard corps communists incharge are much more Capitalistic then their past leaders of the '50s.

And Turkey actually participated!

Yep, the Turks sent like a Bde and were considered very good fighters … then …

Clearly this side of the pond we are taught wrong; I thought it was the United Nations that went to war including numerous free countries

Absolutely. However, I think the Chinese may perceive things differently. While there were certainly many participants to the UN force, it was the US that led the way and were the principal contributors. The Chinese won't forget that any time soon.

Yes, the US had the most combat units in numbers and men than any other member of the UN beside the home country of Korea … That concept seems to have stayed around in many cases …

1950–1953 During the three years of the Korean War, military forces of these nations were allied as members of the UNC. Peak strength for the UNC was 932,964 on July 27, 1953, the day the Armistice Agreement was signed:

Combat Forces
Republic of Korea (South Korea) – 590,911
United States – 302,483
United Kingdom – 14,198
Philippines – 7,468
Thailand – 6,326
Canada – 6,146
Turkey – 5,453
Australia – 2,282
New Zealand – 1,385
Ethiopia – 1,271
Greece – 1,263
France – 1,119
Columbia – 1,068
Belgium – 900
South Africa – 826
Netherlands – 819
Luxembourg – 44
Humanitarian Aid (not counted in total above)
Denmark (the hospital ship MS Jutlandia) – 600
India
Italy (Ospedale da Campo n° 68)
Norway (NORMASH)
Sweden

Also, all the commanders of the UNC were US: Douglas MacArthur, Matthew B. Ridgway, James Van Fleet, and Mark Wayne Clark.

One reason that the joint UN forces were so surprised by the Communist Chinese forces was that the entire army moved using pretty primitive methods such as draft animal drawn or man power drawn carts and wagons. The lack of heavy equipment such as trucks and other vehicles or AFVs did not raise alarms until the Red Swarm came pouring in. Still as noted the Chines and NK suffered astounding losses and the best they could do was a stalemate.

Of course now we are dealing with a far different dynamic as China has a fairly modern military and from all counts quite professional. However, China now would have far more to lose in a direct military conflict with the United States and South Korea. Recent interactions between China and NK are showing the relationship is becoming strained and China will not appreciate NK setting a time table not of China's choosing. Also China is far more focused on Honk Kong, Taiwan, and its bogus claims on the China Sea.

China's current aggression is driving more nations to side with and/or encourage the United States to take action. Like the Korean War China could find itself facing if not a UN force (which would be impossible anyway since China has veto power on the Security Council) a significant alliance of the United States, Philippines, Vietnam, possibly Japan, Taiwan, and other South East Asia countries. Plus other players such as Australia, New Zealand, and India have a clear stake in the China Sea and would support the effort against China in some form or fashion. Those are not odds I think the current Chinese regime are keen to gamble on. China has far more to gain by continuing to be an economic powerhouse that can rival the United States for monetary dominance. Better to bury us in dollars or more appropriately Yuan than to try and finish us off with bullets.

Quite interesting data my friend Legion 4.
Thanks for share.

I understand that the article point the last time US and Chinese Armies were involved in a direct confrontation.

Amicalement
Armand

From what I understand, China has some interesting internal problems going right now. Regional and ethnic tensions, urban vs rural tensions, and an intergenerational tension, all of which make for an interesting dynamic.

We always seem to forget that China and the Chinese are not one people or nation.

Still, as much as Tango loves to post articles about a US China war, we have nothing to gain and a lot to lose from one. I just don't see it happening.

As to China and Japan… that's a different ball game.

I have to agree with you Keith. But I think the China v Japan possibility is a bit of a red herring as well. Again both parties have much to lose and some pretty high stakes. Of course logic sadly rarely comes into play in theses kind of things.

Tango, The last time the US vs. PRC in direct battles was in the Korean War. However, there were rumors of Chinese advisors and such in Vietnam.

Agreed. I think the possibility of Sino Japanese conflict low as well. I just see it as a more unpredictable political situation than Sino US.

Of course, nations have gone to war over all kinds of dumb stuff, so maybe the politicians will make a liar out of me…

The Korean War had a major effect on the PRC army. The losses were mostly veterans and with the Cultural Revolution (officers lost their badges of rank) it hurt the army.

When they fought the Vietnamese army (about 20 years after Korea) they got badly mauled.

Not really on-topic, but I came across a nice series of photos of North Korea the other day:
link

I don't think China has the slightest interest in human wave/blood instead of treasure warfare any longer. The one child policy has produced a lot of 'young princes', the loss of which would devastate the cultural bedrock of family continuity and the rising middle class of which I believe there are a mere 350 million+, would not sit idly by while their sons paid the butchers bill.

Any conflict, and I believe China is a rational actor (not so convinced about Vlad the Shirtless and his merry band of nationalist kleptocrat xenophobes), and is investing in a technologicaly competitive force to avoid substituting numbers for quality coupled with the patience to alternate between bullying and buying as a substitute for simple force.

Yes, in '79 when the PRC and Vietnam went to war. link It was noted, the PRC still had a prediletion for human wave attacks. And the NVA was very much battle hardened and experienced. After both the French war in Indo-China and the more recent US/SEATO involvement. Plus much of the Sino-Viet war was on the Viet's home turf … Which gave them another advantage. As well as some Viet units had US equipment that the NVA took from the ARVN after the defeat of the South …

Of course there is a whole other question. Would the Chinese have gotten involved if the allies hadn't pushed so close to their border?

Probably not, but MacArthur was something of an idiot and forced the issue.

Still, as much as Tango loves to post articles about a US China war, we have nothing to gain and a lot to lose from one. I just don't see it happening.

As to China and Japan… that's a different ball game.

Considering that a war between China and Japan means a war between China and the US, not so much.

Agree my friend.

Amicalement
ARmand

We're not going to fight the Chinese any time soon.

For a really really good read on the war,I found the book by Max Hastings is an excellent read. Goes into a lot of little things you don't usually think about and has some excellent battle accounts.

Considering that a war between China and Japan means a war between China and the US, not so much.

Not necessarily or even likely.

Funny, do the hundred thousand chinese manning anti-aircraft defenses in North Viet Nam count as shooting at Americans too?

Probably … and if that is true … then the US killed a lot of Chinamen too. Rumor was there were some on the ground at the Son Tay raid … and they were killed in the raid. link