"US vs France During American Civil War" Topic

Quite interesting thread here.

link

Amicalement
Armand

See the old movie "Major Dundee" … … one of my favorites …

Pony soldier, I am Sierra Charriba. Who you send against me now?

LOL ! Yeah ! That's the movie !

Great movie!. One of my favourites! (smile)

Interesting if France began actions against the Union as allied of the Confederation. Maybe 60 or 70.000 more soldiers for the south. Not much maybe, but still interesting. Specially from the Navy. No more blocking for the Confederation.

Amicalement
Armand

….. Would make an interesting situation for development of a naval scenario: French squadron attacking the Union squadron blockading New Orleans.

B

The Union didn't have to blockade New Orleans, since the city was captured in April '62 by Adm. Farragut.

And the French were in over their heads in Mexico. Plus the fact that the left-wing opposition parties would have crucified the government for trying to aid the southern slave holders and carried most of the moderates with them. There were very good reasons for the lack of enthusiasm in both France and Britain for intervention.

"Interesting if France began actions against the Union as allied of the Confederation. Maybe 60 or 70.000 more soldiers for the south. Not much maybe, but still interesting. Specially from the Navy. No more blocking for the Confederation."

Not a chance. France was already overstretched in Mexico. Add in aiding the Confederacy, and the French government would have collapsed (assuming they weren't tossed out by the opposition).

The early French ironclads were really poor sea boats and the crews suffered badly off Mexico. Most of the French troops in Mexico were not regulars, but colonials and the FFL with odds and ends of mercs and volunteers. Very unpopular war with the French public and Nap III was not in high popularity either. Plus I would guess that Bismarck would have had kittens if the French had been distracted by an American war, even if years too early for his plans.

One can respect the British navy at that time, but the French were not willing to even consider aiding the south without the British carrying the ball for them.

Dan

Dan, that doesn't take Austria into consideration. Despite the fact that the French were trying to prop up a Habsburg-Lorraine heir (and popular brother of the Austrian emperor) to the Mexican throne, I am sure Austria wouldn't miss an opportunity to avenge the loss of prestige at Solferino.

Both the initial French steps toward intervention into Mexico and the Union capture of New Orleans took place around 1862. And, after all, we are talking about alternate history.

B

The French Army in Mexico was largely regular. The regular regiments deployed being:

Infantry Regiments
7e, 51e, 62e, 81e, 95e, 95e Regiments de Ligne
1er, 2e, 3eme Regiments de Zouaves
2e Régiment d'Infanterie de Marine
Regiment Etranger

Battalions
1er, 73, 18e, 20e Bataillons de Chasseurs
Bataillon de Tirailleurs Algériens
Bataillon d'Infanterie legère d'Afrique
Bataillon de Fusiliers-Marins

Cavalry (all 2 sqn detachments)
1er, 2e, 3eme Chasseurs d'Afrique
12e Chasseurs
5e Hussards

These were supplemented by a number of volunteer units from Austria, Belgium, Egypt etc., and by the Imperial Mexican Army. Quite a lot in the latter years, but never the majority of the forces.

That said, if you want to have the French fight the Union, feel free to do so. Fun over facts I dare say! Hur hurr!

Thanks for the OOB 67th ! The FFL got one of their iconic bits of history/legacy at the battle of Camaron in Mexico. link

I'd be interested in the possible intervention by the Union into Mexico from Texas. Does anyone know if troops were moved to the border (I was lead to believe it was Phil Sheridan with 50,000 men) after the war? Does anyone think that it might be an interesting scenario?

Write the scenario, I will publish it! Last Issue we had a "what if Jackson had been at Gettysburg scenario"

This is the orbat of the US Army as of late 1866:

The Army Reorganisation Act, 1866, set peace establishment strength at 54,302 officers and men, organised as:

45x 10 company infantry regiments (38th-41st to be colored and 42nd-45th to be invalids or "veteran reserves))
10x 12 company cavalry regiments (9th and 10th to be coloured)
5x 12 company artillery regiments, each fielding 2 batteries and a 10 company infantry battalion
1,000 Indian Scouts

The act was meant to consolidate the remaining volunteers into the regulars, with officers coming mainly from the volunteers. Ex-confederates were barred from service completely.

It also allowed for expansion to a war establishment of 75,382, although actual strength peaked in September '66 at 38,545.

Organisation was approximately (in early 1867):

General US Grant, commanding
LG WT Sherman, commanding the Military Division of the Missouri (Depts of Arkansas, the Missouri, the Platte, and Dakota)
MG Henry Halleck, commanding the Military Division of the Pacific (Depts of California and the Columbia)

Dept of the East
MG George Meade
1st Artillery (as infantry)
3rd Artillery (as infantry)
composite battalion of 4th Artillery (3 coys) and 40th Coloured Infantry (7 coys)
42nd Veteran Reserve Infantry

Dept of the Lakes
BG Joseph Hooker
Light Battery of 4th Artillery
3 coys, 4th Infantry
42nd Veteran Reserve Infantry

Dept of Washington
BG ERS Canby
3 coys, 5th Cavalry
7 coys, 4th Artillery (as infantry)
12th Infantry
30th Infantry
40th Colored Infantry
44th Veteran Reserve Infantry

Dept of the Potomac (Richmond, Va)
BG John Schofield
1 coy, 5th Cavalry
light battery of 5th Artillery
4 coys, 5th Artillery (as infantry)
11th Infantry
20th Infantry
21st Infantry
29th Infantry

Dept of the South
MG Dan Sickles
4 coys, 5th Cavalry
light battery of 3rd Artillery
6th Infantry
8th Infantry

Dept of the Tennessee
MG George Thomas
4 coys, 5th Cavalry
2nd Infantry
15th Infantry
16th Infantry
24th Infantry
25th Infantry
33rd Infantry
34th Infantry
45th Veteran Reserve Infantry

Dept of the Gulf
MG Philip Sheridan
4th Cavalry
6th Cavalry
9th Colored Cavalry
2 light batteries of 1st Artillery
6 coys, 5th Artillery (as infantry)
1st Infantry
7th Infantry
17th Infantry
26th Infantry
35th Infantry
39th Colored Infantry
41st Colored Infantry

Dept of the Arkansas
BG EOC Ord
light battery of 5th Artillery
19th Infantry
28th Infantry
37th Infantry

Dept of the Missouri
MG Winfield Hancock
2 coys, 2nd Cavalry
3rd Cavalry
7th Cavalry
9th Colored Cavalry
light battery of 4th Artillery
3rd Infantry
5th Infantry
38th Colored Infantry

Dept of the Platte (Iowa, Nebraska, Utah and some of Dakota Terr.)
BG Philip St. Geo. Cooke
10 coys, 2nd Cavalry
light battery of 3rd Artillery
13th Infantry
18th Infantry
27th Infantry
36th Infantry

Dept of Dakota (Minnesota, Montana Terr. and some of Dakota Terr.)
BG AH Terry
10th Infantry
22nd Infantry
31st Infantry

Dept of California
BG Irvin McDowell
8 coys, 1st Cavalry
8th Cavalry
2 light batteries of 2nd Artillery
6 coys of 2nd Artillery (as infantry)
9th Infantry
14th Infantry
32nd Infantry

Dept of the Columbia (Oregon, Washington Terr. and Idaho Terr.)
MG Frederick Steele
4 coys, 1st Cavalry
4 coys, 2nd Artillery (as infantry)
23rd Infantry

Two regular BGs were are without a command above, Rosecrans and Pope. Rosecrans would resign his Commission to become US Minister to Mexico (only to be fired by Grant as soon as he became President) and Pope has recently been relieved of of Dept of the Missouri, and will from April-Dec. '67 can assigned to the Dept of the Tennessee with disasterous results.

Thanks 67. I am more interested in the OOB for the Army of Occupation in Texas (1865 – 1866). It appears that Sheridan did bring a fair sized army with him to Texas. It appears that the 4th Corps, the 25th Corps, and two divisions (Custer and Merritt) of cavalry were sent. Unfortuately That has been as far as I have gotten. I am looking for an OOB for Divisions, Brigades, and Regiments. Does anyone know where to get this info? Any sources?