Bangorstu | 20 Oct 2014 8:57 a.m. PST |
Seems everyone has missed this…. link Swedes seem to have found a Russian sub doing a bit of snooping. Though with 30,000 islands and rocks in the area, must be an ideal place for a decent sub commander to play hide and seek. |
JimDuncanUK | 20 Oct 2014 9:15 a.m. PST |
Obviously not of much interest at the moment. Maybe that will change if something is found. |
Only Warlock | 20 Oct 2014 9:47 a.m. PST |
They posted a fuzzy pic of it. |
Barin1 | 20 Oct 2014 9:54 a.m. PST |
Actually, Swedish defense minister no longer specifies the country allegiance of the unknown underwater object. Russian defense ministry politely pointed the presence of the Dutch submarine in the region ;) Again, that's how modern media works… |
Griefbringer | 20 Oct 2014 10:12 a.m. PST |
As far as I know, the Swedish navy has been trying to hunt Soviet/Russian submarines in their waters since the 1980's. Not sure what they would do if they actually found one. |
Weasel | 20 Oct 2014 10:22 a.m. PST |
Obvious cover-up to conceal the presence of underwater monsters. |
Bangorstu | 20 Oct 2014 10:27 a.m. PST |
The Dutch have equally politely pointed out that: a) they have no need to spy on the Swedes; and b) They don't have a record of so doing; c) They told the Swedes where the sub (on exercise) was. Now given the Russians have a track record of losing submarine sin Swedish waters, and an even more recent one of violating Swedish airspace I think it reasonable to assume the Russian Defence Ministry is – once again – lying through its teeth. |
Bangorstu | 20 Oct 2014 10:30 a.m. PST |
Griefbringer – actually I know the answer to that. Our university wargames club had a Swede in who was an officer. According to him he regularly patrolled the coastline looking for saboteurs. His orders were to engage. The Swedes have depth charged suspected submarines before… Frankly, if Putin keeps pushing the envelope like this, some Russian mothers are going to end up weeping because sooner or later someone is going to have had enough of the provocation. Doubtless Russia Today will then complain like mad and blame it all on NATO. |
Griefbringer | 20 Oct 2014 11:03 a.m. PST |
I guess if the Swedes get provoked enough, they will start using surströmming instead of depth charges. Shudder… |
PHGamer | 20 Oct 2014 11:23 a.m. PST |
Nothing really new here. Russian subs have been practicing in Swedish home waters for decades. Good practice to evade a small navy amongst the islands before going after NATO fleets. I have story a Swede told me many years ago. I have it posted in my Stories of the Cold War blog. link |
Martin Rapier | 20 Oct 2014 11:45 a.m. PST |
I think there was an episode of Wallander about this! |
skippy0001 | 20 Oct 2014 12:41 p.m. PST |
New film-Das Smorgasboote-about cold meat smuggling:). |
GarrisonMiniatures | 20 Oct 2014 1:02 p.m. PST |
'I have story a Swede told me many years ago.' My brother-in-law used to work a lot in Eastern Europe. Stories he told from reps included the guy who forgot to ask for an early morning wake up call – so, in his room he said in a clear voice 'could I have a wake up call at… please' – he got it. Another rep saw some wires inhis hotel room in clear view, followed then outside his room and noticed they joined a load more from other rooms going down the hall. They all then went into another room – so he opened the door and looked in to see someone hunched over a set of earphones… Back in the Cold War era, it was assumed you were beimg listened to. One reaction? Hold meetings in your room where you discussed the absolute minimum/maximum price you would sell/buy at, next day in front of the Soviets guess what price they forced you down/up to? |
Lion in the Stars | 20 Oct 2014 1:10 p.m. PST |
My brother-in-law used to work a lot in Eastern Europe. Stories he told from reps included the guy who forgot to ask for an early morning wake up call – so, in his room he said in a clear voice 'could I have a wake up call at… please' – he got it. *snerk!* Though from stories I heard from the old Cold Warriors when I was in the Navy, the Soviets tended to appreciate people who played by the rules. |
Bangorstu | 20 Oct 2014 1:33 p.m. PST |
In what way does the Swedish Navy count as 'Second Rate'? Given its standard of training and equipment is better than quite a few NATO navies…. |
49mountain | 20 Oct 2014 2:03 p.m. PST |
Intereting story about the incident on MSN.com. The Swedes get a cold war of their own. |
Major Mike | 20 Oct 2014 3:25 p.m. PST |
Bangorstu has it right, I remember back in the late 80's the Swedes doing some very serious subhunting including the use of depth charges, on more than one occasion. |
Jeff Ewing | 20 Oct 2014 4:41 p.m. PST |
In what way does the Swedish Navy count as 'Second Rate'? They certainly are not. They sank the USS Ronald Reagan: link |
Fonthill Hoser | 20 Oct 2014 4:46 p.m. PST |
PHGamer, if you think the Swedish navy is second rate you haven't a clue what you're talking about. |
Steve Wilcox | 20 Oct 2014 5:07 p.m. PST |
It sounds like the Swedish Navy has the skill: "And Sweden's Navy has been a particular point of pride, even as it is now suffering from budget cuts. Indeed, Swedish submarines participated in exercises with the U.S. Navy in the mid-2000s in which a Swedish diesel-electric submarine succeeded in sinking U.S. aircraft carriers, creating a bit of panic among American admirals." But not the equipment for this task: "But in carrying out their search, the Swedish authorities are being severely hampered by their lack of sonar-equipped helicopters. Because the Stockholm archipelago is a dense island landscape, it has become something of a notorious playground for submarines, which have ample natural features behind which to hide and evade surface vessels. Unlike ships moving on the surface, helicopters have a distinct advantage in tracking down submarines, which have great difficulty monitoring aircraft while underwater. A helicopter can quickly cover large areas, surprising submarines by dropping sonar sensors. But Sweden's fleet of anti-submarine helicopters were phased out in 2008, and the replacement isn't expected until 2018." "The Swedish Navy Is Hunting a Russian Submarine and Doesn't Have the Tools for It" link |
Mako11 | 20 Oct 2014 5:27 p.m. PST |
"Little Green Men" in subs. Even I didn't see that one coming. Good fodder for some hypothetical scenarios, if you don't want to do the Su-24 incursion shoot-down scenario, which DID happen recently. Of course, the difficulty for that one is finding a Swedish pilot, or two, and getting his/their jets quickly readied and armed, for takeoff. To add a little more fluff, and background behind the Russian actions, under Putin, this makes for very interesting reading: link I was a bit surprised to read that so many Russians are now restricted from leaving the country. |
Deadone | 20 Oct 2014 5:52 p.m. PST |
Captain Nemo is back to his old tricks.
|
Chortle | 20 Oct 2014 11:32 p.m. PST |
Swedish armed forces widen hunt for suspected submarine Civilian shipping evacuated off Stockholm as helicopters and navy search for vessel that experts think is Russian midget subSweden widens hunt for ‘mysterious submarine'. Source: ITN Swedish armed forces widened the hunt for a suspected submarine on Monday, with helicopters, naval vessels and some 200 military personnel combing the Stockholm archipelago for "foreign underwater activity". As the search expanded, the Swedish military warned civilian shipping to evacuate the search zone, and non-essential air traffic was banned from the area. An indistinct picture released by the Swedish military shows a vessel apparently breaking the surface 30 miles east of Stockholm. According to the military, there have been three sightings of the craft since Friday. The mystery vessel is more likely to be a midget sub of the kind used by Russia's Spetsnaz (special forces) rather than a large nuclear one, according to defence officials and analysts. They said that it could be a Triton or Piranha – both midget submarines used to by military divers for special missions. link If the sub is a midget (with a very brave crew) how far away could the "mother" vessel be? |
Mako11 | 21 Oct 2014 2:20 a.m. PST |
It could be close by, since apparently there was a Russian cargo vessel in the area, that has been there for a while now. |
Chortle | 21 Oct 2014 3:10 a.m. PST |
Is the cargo vessel something we can track online? I remember when a cargo container fell apart months ago. That time I think there was free online tracking for commercial ships. If that is so, a "mother ship" – James Bond style – would want to fit in by being on it. |
MCV 80 | 21 Oct 2014 3:12 a.m. PST |
I have to second Mako11. In my local German newspaper (Hannoversche Allgemeine Zeitung) there was a report today which included information about a Russian Tanker (NS Concord) sailing under the flag of Liberia. This ship is located some 70 seamiles away. It was stated as possible that this ship is not there by surprise but as part of an ongoing operation of the Russians. Cheers, Benjamin |
Barin1 | 21 Oct 2014 3:18 a.m. PST |
Mako, while some of the stuff in the article seems true enough to me, there's a lot of wrong conclusions, typical to western analysis of Russian situation. It has little to do with the potential sub accident…but we're talking of something that was going for decades. I remember hearing "Radio Stockholm" back in cold war years, they were reporting sub hunts at least on weekly basis, however I think there was one real case, when Soviet sub (U137?) was broken and had to surface. Sneaking right before your opponent's nose is a favourite game of sunbmarine's commanders…and of course the respective countries are always denying the presence of their subs. Like this: link The excursions help to check the reaction of shore defenses, see the distance of warning systems, and providing other interesting info… Lots of funny comments in guardian's article on the subject today: link |
MCV 80 | 21 Oct 2014 3:33 a.m. PST |
I agree that sneaking in the waters of another nation is not something done exclusively by the Russians or back in the days Soviets. On the other hand I strongly disagree that there was only one real case. I would rather say it was only one real case which badly went wrong showing a major problem: Even if they are only playing this can be very dangerous if one toy involved is possibly a nuclear propelled and well armed submarine. Kind regards, Benjamin |
GeoffQRF | 21 Oct 2014 4:47 a.m. PST |
Seems everyone has missed this… Technically, so have the Swedes so far. The fuzzy distance photo could be pretty much anything. Russian defense ministry politely pointed the presence of the Dutch submarine in the region Which the Dutch disproved: Dutch defence officials laughed at the suggestion. The Netherlands defence ministry said: "We participated in an exercise with Sweden with several ships, but it ended last week [on] Thursday." It added: "[A] Dutch submarine is not involved." The Dutch ministry said the submarine, the Bruinvis, continued to Estonia where it had been at anchor in Tallinn. Re: USS Virginia… yes, but that RT article still states "A collision with US nuclear submarine, Toledo, was one the main explanations of the Kursk submarine tragedy in 2000," the Navy source said. … something even Russia has now confirmed was related to an explosion in the torpedo room. If you read wider: Russian state news agencies say the country's navy claims to have driven away a submarine believed to be American that entered Russia's northern waters. And Reports that a U.S. Navy submarine was chased from away from Russian controlled waters by Russian anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft on Aug. 7 are false, U.S. European Command (EUCOM) officials told USNI News on Monday. "There is no truth to this story; there was no U.S. submarine in the area," read a statement from EUCOM. "Unknown on other nations, but it was not U.S., and we had nothing in any boundary area on the day in question." Was it [allegedly] actually within territorial waters, or elsewhere in the Barents, which is international water? |
PHGamer | 21 Oct 2014 6:13 a.m. PST |
The term "second rate" was an extremely poor choice of words. And I apologize. I edited it out in the original missive, but I now see that the edit didn't take, and instead created a separate entry. I agree the sailors of the Swedish Navy (and the ground forces as well) have the highest professionalism, but the Swedish military over all doesn't have all the equipment required for a major military operations. They have some excellent pieces of well-designed equipment, but there seems to be holes as well. Once again I am sorry for the "second rate" comment. |
Lion in the Stars | 21 Oct 2014 11:36 a.m. PST |
Sneaking right before your opponent's nose is a favourite game of sunbmarine's commanders…and of course the respective countries are always denying the presence of their subs. This is very true. Read Blind Man's Bluff for the US side of the story. But I cannot believe the Swedes got rid of their ASW helicopters without already having the replacement in hand! The US would happily sell SH2G Super Seasprites or SH60s, and I'm pretty sure there's an ASW version of the EH101, as well. |
MCV 80 | 21 Oct 2014 12:30 p.m. PST |
There is an ASW version of the EH101 which is afaIk operational with the Royal Navy to name an example. A Naval version of the NH90 (operated by the Swedish under the designation Hkp 14) is available as well. If I got it right the Swedish Armed Forces did order a Naval version with sonar equipment which is called Hkp 14F by them. I am not sure if they already took delivery of them. Furthermore they operate the Hkp 15B (a version of the Agusta A109) which is equipped with (a) hydrophone buoy(s). Kind regards, Benjamin |
Mako11 | 21 Oct 2014 2:02 p.m. PST |
Oh, I agree with you Barin1. It is pretty certain that the UK and US ran some exercises with/without Swedish knowledge back in the day (circa early 1980s), supposedly to test their efficiency/resolve, and to provide impetus for Sweden to keep a strong military budget. Also, apparently, to keep Sweden in the NATO sphere of influence, since we were worried about pacifists/communists in their leadership. I know at least one of their leaders died under suspicious circumstances (supposedly, a leftist). Apparently, there have been several more sightings, in the last 24 hours. However, given all the machinations in the Crimea/Ukraine, and threats of other actions throughout Europe, including at least three overt warnings to the EU of nuclear war with Russia in the past two months, I suspect this is a bit different. Not to mention the recent air incursions by Russian aircraft into neighboring countries, and testing the air defense responses of many other nations around the globe. I find all of the various possibilities of what the sightings could be entertaining, since the Russian spokesmen seem to feel the need to come up with numerous ideas of what they could be, ignoring the most likely, and obvious one, of course. I suspect they protest too much, leading to greater suspicions of their culpability. After all, there were no Russians in Crimea either, until there were. It appears to me that Putin is out to show that he, and Russia are still an important player in world politics. It will be interesting to see what sanctions, and the falling price of oil will have on his prowess, in the next year, or two. |
Steve Wilcox | 21 Oct 2014 2:07 p.m. PST |
A Naval version of the NH90 (operated by the Swedish under the designation Hkp 14) is available as well. If I got it right the Swedish Armed Forces did order a Naval version with sonar equipment which is called Hkp 14F by them. I am not sure if they already took delivery of them. It sounds like delivery is still a few years off. The earlier link I posted said 2018, this one says 2019: "Av de 18 helikoptrar som Sverige har beställt är 13 rent markoperativa och kallas HKP 14E. Resterande fem kallas HKP 14F och kan utrustas med sonarutrustning för att användas vid ubåtsjakt. I samband med beställningen bad Försvarsmakten också att arbetshöjden i kabinen på de svenska helikoptrarna skulle höjas från 157 centimeter till 182, en modifiering som tillverkaren nu marknadsför som HCV (High Cabin Version). Enligt tidsplanen ska samtliga 18 exemplar av HKP 14 vara levererade till Försvarsmakten under 2019." link Google Chrome translation: "Of the 18 helicopters that Sweden has ordered 13 are operational and clean land called HKP 14E. The remaining five are called HKP 14F and can be equipped with sonar equipment to be used for anti-submarine warfare. In conjunction with the order asked the Armed Forces also working height in the cabin on the Swedish helicopters would be increased from 157 inches to 182, a modification that the manufacturer now markets as HCV (High Cabin Version). According to the schedule, all 18 copies of the HKP 14 to be delivered to the Armed Forces during the 2019th" |
Lion in the Stars | 21 Oct 2014 6:50 p.m. PST |
Furthermore they operate the Hkp 15B (a version of the Agusta A109) which is equipped with (a) hydrophone buoy(s). Nothing wrong with a dipping sonar, though it's nice to have both one-time-use buoys to set a screen and the dipping sonar to chase towards/through the screen… |
Mako11 | 21 Oct 2014 7:30 p.m. PST |
They used to have a SOSUS-like array, or arrays, and supposedly, shore-based torpedo tubes as well, IIRC. Wonder why they can't locate their target(s) with those? And, just for grins, there are remotely controlled mine arrays too, offshore, if needed, or were, back in 1982. |
Deadone | 21 Oct 2014 8:21 p.m. PST |
But I cannot believe the Swedes got rid of their ASW helicopters without already having the replacement in hand It's not surprising. For example the Dutch got rid of all their Lynxes in 2012. They have NH90s on order but they still haven't entered service – apparently the NH90 has shortcomings that make it unsuitable for salt water operations (that's right a naval helicopter that is not suitable for naval operations). defensie.nl/english/latest/news/2014/06/27/minister-of-defence-suspends-acceptance-of-new-dutch-nh90-helicopters Up to this Swedish incident, ASW has been forgotten in Europe.
Indeed the large number of lighter ASW frigates has been replaced by small handfuls of larger primarily air defence tasked destroyers. The Swedish Navy doesn't even have any frigates left, let alone destroyers. Largest ships are five (5) 640 ton Visby corvettes that were neutered following cutbacks to ASW and SAM systems.
The 4 other corvettes in service are 380-400 ton corvettes with limited ASW capabilities and are 20+ years old. There are no maritime patrol aircraft either in service. |
Mako11 | 22 Oct 2014 2:11 a.m. PST |
Yes, but those Visby's are very pleasing to the eyes, unlike our ill-fated LCS program, which is similarly, anemically armed. A few pirates with small arms could probably take them down in a boarding action, if desired, especially since the crews' small arms are no doubt locked up for "safety", or to reduce the chance of mutiny. ;-) |
Oh Bugger | 22 Oct 2014 1:07 p.m. PST |
"Again, that's how modern media works…" Ah you're spoiling it for them Barin1 too cruel. |
Daniel S | 22 Oct 2014 4:24 p.m. PST |
The Swedish Navy doesn't even have any frigates left, let alone destroyers. We haven't had either for a long time, the last frigates were decomissioned in 1979 and the last destroyers were decomissioned in 1982-84. They were all old ships by then, the frigates were rebuilt destroyers from WW2 while the destroyers were all 1950's designs. Ocean going warships proved to be an expensive and inefficient solution for a small nation planing for a defensive war in the Baltic while facing enemy air superiority. Even at the height of Swedish defence spending in the 1950's the Halland-class destroyers proved too expensive and the class was reduced from 6 to 2. The Fast Attack Craft and Corvettes that replaced them proved a more effective solution given the size of the Swedish defence budget. The 4 other corvettes in service are 380-400 ton corvettes with limited ASW capabilities and are 20+ years old Actually both the Stockholm and Göteborg classes were built with extensive ASW capabilities for their size including towed array sonar and ASW torpedoes. They formed the core of the old ASW task force during the 80's and early 90's All currently serving ships of both classes have had extensive upgrades and are probably more efficient in the ASW role than the Visbys at the moment given that they have none of the laters problem with sensors and weaponry. There is a reason why the current operation involves only a single Visby but two Stockholm/Göteborg class. |
Daniel S | 22 Oct 2014 4:42 p.m. PST |
But I cannot believe the Swedes got rid of their ASW helicopters without already having the replacement in hand! The old ASW helos were part of the Swedish fleet of Boeing Vertol 107's that had provided excellent service but were long over due to be replaced by the much delayed NH90s. Since the goverment focus at the time was on international deployments it was not seen as a problem that the armed forces went a couple of years without ASW helos. The army had theirs replace by some very nice Blackhawks due to it being in combat in Afghanistan but the Navy is forced to wait for "their" version of the NH90 which of course is the most deplayed. |
GeoffQRF | 23 Oct 2014 6:21 a.m. PST |
Of course Sweden has never forgotten the Whiskey on the Rocks incident… Soviet submarine S-363 was a Soviet Navy Whiskey-class submarine of the Baltic Fleet, which became famous under the designation U 137 when it ran aground on October 27, 1981 on the south coast of Sweden, approximately 10 km from Karlskrona, one of the larger Swedish naval bases. The captain initially claimed that simultaneous failures of navigational equipment had caused the boat to get lost (despite the fact that the boat had already somehow navigated through a treacherous series of rocks, straits, and islands to get so close to the naval base). The Soviet navy would later issue a conflicting statement claiming that the boat had been forced into Swedish waters due to severe distress, although the boat had never sent a distress signal, but rather, attempted to escape. In an interview in 2006, Vasily Besedin, the political officer on board, gave a different picture. The vessel had dual navigation systems, a well-trained crew and the captain Pyotr Gushchin was amongst the best. On board was staff officer Joseph Avrukevich who was trained in security techniques. Besedin claimed the incident was caused by an error in calculations by the navigation officer. …then again, they could hardly say "oops, sorry, we were spying but you caught us, sorry about that" and just leave. |
Daniel S | 24 Oct 2014 4:08 p.m. PST |
Fairly recent research into declassified documents and interviews with participants have revealed that "Whiskey on the Rocks" came very close to erupting into fighting no less than 3 times. First when the Soviet ships that intialy responded to the situation tried to enter Swedish waters late on the 28th of October only to turn away seconds before reach the border when the ships registered that the Swedish coastal artillery had switched into the frequency hoping targeting mode. (Basicly a wartime setting never used during peacetime) The next day, the 29th, a Soviet military tug actually entered Swedish waters and tried to make it's way to the submarie only to be prevented from reach the Sub after a very tense chase by the submarine HSwMS Neptun. Had the tug actually reached the Gåsefjärd it would have led to a firefight since by then Lt-Col Elming had arrived with his paratroopers and deployed on the islands surrounding the submarine. During the 29th the soviet naval squadron grew to 14 ships which had aboard a force of several hundred Soviet Naval Infantry, the order was to launch a operation to recover S-363 using force on 3 AM on the 30th. (Probably counting pn the cover of darkness to prevent the Swedish Air Force from reacting in strenght.) At 2.30 AM the operation was aborted as the arrival of Swedish reinforcements had made the defences too strong to breach without significant air support. Had the operation been launched things would have spiraled out of control rapidly, there was no way for the Soviets to free S-363 without losing ships and men to the costal artillery (including a series of command controlled minefields), the paratroopers and marines and last but not least the Swedish airforce with had AJ37 Viggen standing by armed with anti-ship missiles in case the squadron armed with 135mm rockets and flare bombs did not deter or stop the Soviet ships. |
Grand Duke Natokina | 26 Oct 2014 2:45 p.m. PST |
I remember the incident in the 80's mentioned in the video. It was right in Stockholm harbor. |
Mako11 | 26 Oct 2014 3:04 p.m. PST |
I recall reading about the scramble to arm the Viggens, so they could launch immediately, if needed. Fun times!!! |
Gwydion | 26 Oct 2014 4:55 p.m. PST |
I seem to remember analysing this event every year in the 80s. Its like the Rolling Stones, just when you think they're over…. |
Mako11 | 14 Nov 2014 10:52 a.m. PST |
Apparently, the Swedes have now confirmed the incursion into their waters: link The article doesn't say how, so I suspect either via sonar analysis, or they found those little mini-sub tracks on the bottom, like were discovered back in the early 1980s, again. |
Barin1 | 14 Nov 2014 12:12 p.m. PST |
- mysterious sub appeared just in time during parliament hearing on defense spending - the search was called off as soon as the increase of defense budget was agreed - several weeks later, the military produces a blurry pic of something that might look like a scratch on sea bed by a sub to prove that they were not getting these money for nothing. Well, each one of us can either trust it or not… |
Mako11 | 14 Nov 2014 12:27 p.m. PST |
No need to continue the hoax by them, since they already have the funding, so there is little to be gained from that. I believe this incursion to be more likely true than not, given all of the other land, sea, and air incursions, and Russian military activities of late, in the region, and around the globe. Not to mention the fact of the distress call in Russian, from someone in the area. It wouldn't be the first time a Russian unit got into trouble, and needed to be rescued in Swedish waters. Google "Whiskey on the Rocks", from the early 1980s, if you want more info about that little incident. |
Lion in the Stars | 14 Nov 2014 12:56 p.m. PST |
Even if you think it does smell a bit fishy, Barin, I would not put it past ANY submarine captain to try to sneak in. Well, at least any fast-attack captain. Boomer captains tend to be a bit more laid-back. |