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"When all tanks are Tigers" Topic


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John the OFM18 Oct 2014 6:40 a.m. PST

Have you ever encountered or run a scenario where the Allied player thinks that all the tanks facing him are Tigers?

For instance, the players are told that this is the semi mystical battle of Frere Jacques in late June in Normandy. The Good Guy is told he is facing the 23rd SS Panzerdivision. He come on with his Shermans and suddenly the Hun comes on with 12 Tigers!
This is a play on the meme that "All German tanks are Tigers". They are really measly PzIVsomething-or-other that can be quite easily handled by Shermans. But the models are actually Tigers.

O have heard of a few games like this. Obviously, the Germans and the GM are in on the joke, but somehow the Allied player has to find out sooner or later what he is facing.
How would you handle this for your favorite rules? Mine is Flames of War.

I would have the "Tigers" act like and fire like Tigers. Use all the stats for Tigers, because a "lowly" PzIV can still take on a Sherman. I would use PzIV armor for when the Shermans shoot (if they are not afraid to come out and shoot) and say things like "Oh! Lucky shot!"
Perhaps a Skill Check to suddenly realize this is not a Tiger?

Advice wanted. I am trying to put an Evil Scenario together.

klepley18 Oct 2014 7:03 a.m. PST

Trial by fire. If you are too afraid to come out and fight, would make a good scenario. Maybe when a "tiger" is destroyed, you place a PzIV hulk out burning as a hint. Sounds like a really fun game for both sides.

Raynman Supporting Member of TMP18 Oct 2014 7:29 a.m. PST

That sounds like fun. I like games like that.

normsmith18 Oct 2014 8:11 a.m. PST

I would put out blanks for all German vehicles and have the scenario explain that enemy heavy armour is believed to be operating in the area. All blanks would move at tiger speed

I think once a vehicle is eyeballed and would normally be 'seen' in the rules, then it should be revealed as to what it is.

You could also exaggerate in relation to shots that the Germans make that miss – encouraging the other player to think they had a near miss from. Tiger.

Korvessa18 Oct 2014 8:17 a.m. PST

I have an old AH game called Patton's Best (a solo game). All German tanks are treated like Tigers in all respect until specifically identified as something else.
The game is in the bottom of closet – could look it up if interested

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Oct 2014 8:18 a.m. PST

Incidentally, the myth that US soldiers thought all tanks were Tigers was smarts, not fear. Tigers were priority targets. If you needed a 500lb dropped somewhere you called in a tiger. Might be a farmhouse or a bunker or a PzIV. This from a memoir called "Autobahn to Berchtesgarten" or pretty close (it was a while ago).

Martin Rapier18 Oct 2014 8:23 a.m. PST

I have run a few games like that, generally I didn't opt for the extremely lethal Pattons Best approach. When they were 'properly' spotted, they were revealed for what they were. (use a spotting mechanism of your choice, some fudging/hiding of combat results may be necessary).

In one game there really was a Tiger II, but it was out of action and all that nasty AT fire was coming from a Pak 40 concealed some way away. The Allies didn't know that though.

In another there was a Panther, but it was abandoned and out of action. You'd have though the fact that it was facing away from the Allies with its turret to one side was a clue, but they spent ages stalking the ting and were very pleased when they blew it up.

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP18 Oct 2014 9:30 a.m. PST

I think it is a great idea

One idea I have toyed with is that not all dead enemy tanks are actually dead – my father-in-law's SPG was brewed up in Normandy by a "dead panzer" that after being passed by infantry and tanks all day at twilight came to life, shot up the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery battery he was in and took to the hills

PzGeneral18 Oct 2014 9:41 a.m. PST

Also in Patton's Best, all AT guns were 88s until identified too…..

LOVED them game…I just bought a copy of THWs new Hell has no Fury. Maybe I can use that concept somehow……

Dave

15mm and 28mm Fanatik18 Oct 2014 10:54 a.m. PST

You know, Brad Pitt engaged one in 'Fury,' so the odds of encountering one can't be all that bad.

Pizzagrenadier18 Oct 2014 11:05 a.m. PST

I've done that kind if thing. If misidentified, I put out T-34/85s for players to panic about and Panthers for the Reds to be scared of. In the one convention game, it didn't come up, in another it did but didn't last long as it was quickly correctly identified. A lot of it had to do with the close range blind and there was a lot of hidden maneuver.

tberry740318 Oct 2014 11:15 a.m. PST

You know, Brad Pitt engaged one in 'Fury,' so the odds of encountering one can't be all that bad.

There's nothing like Historical Documentation to back up your position! grin

durnford187918 Oct 2014 11:43 a.m. PST

I'm not sure what you mean "act like Tigers" but I would use Tiger models with PZ IV (or whatever) stats and if the Allied player managed to keep his head and knock one out I'd replace it with the appropriate model. This way he has to decide if he's seeing things or not and plan accordingly…

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP18 Oct 2014 12:00 p.m. PST

For my hidden unit markers all German tanks are Tigers, Soviets are T35/85s, Britt are all Fireflies and so on…

nickinsomerset18 Oct 2014 12:01 p.m. PST

We played a good game, with a single Tiger visible on one flank. Suddenly the whole allied plan changed, and got bogged down, it was only at the end when the umpire (A light Dragoon) informed us that it was out of fuel and out of ammo!

Tally Ho!

zoneofcontrol18 Oct 2014 4:20 p.m. PST

Like Martin R. above, we place a Tiger Tank on the board because you'll probably hear a tank before you see it. From there it is replaced with the actual model once spotted.

Patrick R19 Oct 2014 1:52 a.m. PST

I recently did this in a game of CoC. US infantry spotted a Tiger. This caused some upset as the US player only had two Shermans to deal with the Tiger. At some point he tries to rush forward and as he gets closer the Tiger suddenly is replaced by a Marder. That's when one of the Shermans is hit by a panzershreck ambush. Of course the Marder is easily picked off by the second Sherman because it is forced to provide gun support against US infantry.

Of course if you are really evil, you can put a Panzer IV model on the table and then switch to a Tiger for some really interesting games …

langobard19 Oct 2014 2:25 a.m. PST

Great idea! I hadn't thought of doing this before, but I have run games where every Soviet unit of platoon or greater size that is completely wiped out automatically reapears at the Soviet base edge (stole the idea from Hordes of the Things). Soviet players are quite, um, 'inspired' once the realise they have effectively limitless troops, and similarly the Germans start to realise all they can do is hold as best they can and try to get as many units off the board alive as possible. (I've mostly done this with Command Decision, but it works with FoW as well.)

princeman19 Oct 2014 5:37 a.m. PST

John,
We did a Flames of War game in Tunisia with just what you are talking about. We placed 5 Tigers on the board and the American player did not know that they were really Mk IV's and Mk III's until they scored a kill vs the real tank's armor, not just a hit. It was great fun and caused the American player much distress.
Greg

Weasel20 Oct 2014 7:30 a.m. PST

Sounds like a really fun idea. I wonder if you could do the same "in reverse". Hide T34 as T26 to shock the German player or hide Sherman Fireflies as regular Sherman.

Deadone21 Oct 2014 4:11 p.m. PST

Have you ever encountered or run a scenario where the Allied player thinks that all the tanks facing him are Tigers?

Only cause in most games they are. No I am serious.


The scenario sounds like a positively evil idea!

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP02 Jul 2021 8:10 p.m. PST

Of possible interest?

Fallen Tigers: The Fate of America's Missing Airmen in China during World War II


link


Armand

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