""You have to respect them for their fighting skill"?" Topic

Wow !!!! 5 pages ! That may be a record !!?!??

As zaevor2000 mentioned … if you never wore MOPP … you have no idea. Winter or Summer …

He's a doggie, his nose is cold! Sorry, as a former Marine I couldn't help myself ;)

V/R,
Jack

WOOF ! WOOF !

Gwydion

I learnt several pages ago to not bother with this thread. Early on I realised that anything you may say would be replied with selective (mis)quoting, ignoring of facts and unfounded assertions.

I must admit though I nearly replied to this statement about the Spanish Civil War, as it is so bizarre as to be genuinely funny – but I let it go – as on the whole it is not worth the effort.

Although to be fair, this statement might be able to be backed up with evidence. Although I was not aware of it – I am willing to consider that Franco was backed by the er, Bolsheviks? I always thought that it the planes flying Francos troops to Seville were provided by Hitler and the Nazis – is there any evidence that it was in fact Stalins crew instead?

Hang on, I can see a pattern here….

Franco with Nazi support 'saved' Spain from a democratically elected government.
The SS were defending Germany (and probably 'western civilisation') from Communism.
A lot of evidence of Nazi crimes were fabricated by the communists.

Ah yes, I see you…….

LOL. It seems we have yet another party who sees only out of his left eye. Please rein in your passions and read my post again. My comment was simply and solely a speculation about what might have inspired the Nationalist decision for an armed insurrection – nothing more and nothing less.

If you are not familiar with Plutarco Calle and the Cristeros War, please check it out. There were parallels to what was going on in Spain

B

A friend of mine's grand father fought for the republic in Spain, not because he was a communist or anarchist but because it was the legitimate government of the country. He spent time in one of the labour camps after the war, but came out alive.

I don't think he'd be very convinced that Stalin was somehow sending Panzer I's to Franco.

Also, the idea that the Nazi's were less criminal because Stalin was also a massive criminal is not a sound argument at all.

"Why are you peeing in my car?"
"Dude, haven't you heard? Somewhere, a guy is getting murdered right now. Go yell at him!"

Perhaps it's about time that you had a rule about Holocaust denial/doubting then?

Voting is now open. TMP link

I am willing to admit a lack of research into the motivations of those that overthrew the Spanish government.

However, as I believe was clear from my post, but for the avoidance of doubt, the quote I found bizarre was

'in thanks for Germany's help against the Bolshevik backed uprising in Spain'.

Without being interested in debating the motivation for the uprising against Spain's government, I think we can all agree Franco was not a Bolshevik.

Would also say that a response of attempting to divert from what I say by misrepresenting how I say it – that I need to 'rein in my passions' is somewhat tiresome. Again to be clear, and at the risk of stating the obvious, the tone and content of my post are reasoned and not in the least displaying of strong emotion. Trying to suggest otherwise to undermine what I say seems somewhat dishonest.

Also, accusing me of bias 'seeing out of only the left eye' because I have stated a couple of basic facts is also tiresome.

Franco did overthrow Spain's government.
He was not a Bolshevik.
He was supported by Hitler.

I feel confident that these are not bias statements or left wing propaganda, if you want to try to imply they are you really need to do a lot better than accusing me of left wing bias.

Blutarski – the point is – obfuscation.

Guessing what might have been about to happen in no way alters what did.

The elected Government of Spain was overthrown by a Fascist uprising supported by the German Nazis and the Italian Facists.

You can try and change the goalposts as much as you like but it doesn't alter the fact that what Chortle posted was wrong and either deliberately misleading or exhibiting a basic lack of historical knowledge. A fairly typical state of affairs from people who can't or won't see the wood for the trees over the Holocaust and the role of right wing racist extremism in the twentieth century.

Make sure you vote in the poll, let's see what sort of 'club' the majority of members want TMP to be.

As I stated earlier. The fight on the Eastern Front was like a fight between two rabid dogs.

Both of them were a danger to everyone else.

I don't believe anyone is saying that either was more or less evil than the other… merely that BOTH sides committed horribly EVIL acts and atrocities on their enemies AND on their OWN people.

A rabid dog is a rabid dog…

A police state is a horrible place to live in.

Others can vouch for me when I say this…one of the spookiest things about my patrols was the quiet on the other side of the border…the only sounds were animals and machines.

When you have people staying indoors and almost totally empty streets around the border area all you can think about is what a horrible way that is to live…where people are so afraid of saying the wrong thing or of anyone hearing them say something that may be taken the wrong way that the best way to survive is to stay in your home and draw the shutters…minimize your time outside your own home to the bare minimum so that you minimize the danger…so even your own home becomes a prison when you think about it…

Frank

I'm sorry Gwydion, but you are not the officially anointed custodian and censor of 20th century political history. You are certainly entitled to your viewpoint – I have no problem with that. But I and everyone else here are equally so entitled.

To once again point out the bleedingly obvious, my remark simply offered a possible theory to explain why things unfolded the way they did in Spain. How you find such a simple thought to be an "obfuscation" is totally beyond any rational ken.

B

The morning after the Oradour sur Glane slaughter (about 640 people murdered) a spearhead of the Das Reich pz division came in a village north of Oradour, called Bellac, en route to the Normandy front. In this village lived a 10 years boy with his grandparents. The boy was aligned against a wall with a ss behind him, his MP40's 40 muzzle in the boys kidney. The boy had a young dog, given a few days ago for his birthday in his hands. the dog was barking and moaning, and the übermensch took the dog and smashed its head against the wall. The SS said to the boy that he was a red scum and he would die soon just as his dog. Although the boy was terrified he focused his mind on one question: "how can I understand German?" The boy couldn't know that the SS was Alsatian and spoke to him in French. 1 hour later, an officer shouted an order, and the SS got back in his vehicle. For an unknown reason Bellac would not share the destiny of Oradour, Tulle and others villages

The 10 years child was my father.

So I don't think I HAVE to admire the fighting skill of the SS. There are courageous men with great fighting skills in every army everytime everywhere, but that's not enough to make them decent people.
Of course, there is no archive, no evidence of this episode, but one can always say it's stalinist propaganda, or a product of a mythomaniac mind, i don't care.

Maybe a bit of context is important as well. People often wonder why one type of extremist is banned in one country but not in another.

People in much of Eastern Europe tend to be pretty cozy with fascists, because their domination by Russia is much more recent, and the fascists are viewed as fighting Russia.
Hence, Nazism is often legal but communism is outlawed.

In Western Europe, Nazi occupation was the last occupation by a foreign power, and the communists were members of the resistance movements and, like in France, became regular members of government in later years.
Hence, Nazi's are outlawed and communists are not.

Nowadays, I play mostly non-historical games for a very good reason…

John T

Blutarski said

I'm sorry Gwydion, but you are not the officially anointed custodian and censor of 20th century political history. You are certainly entitled to your viewpoint – I have no problem with that. But I and everyone else here are equally so entitled.

Don't be sorry. I'm not.
The Fascists overthrew the elected Government of Spain – not an opinion – fact

To once again point out the bleedingly obvious, my remark simply offered a possible theory to explain why things unfolded the way they did in Spain. How you find such a simple thought to be an "obfuscation" is totally beyond any rational ken.

Because that wasn't the issue. The issue was the factual error made (for whatever reason) by Chortle. Agreed the Spanish went to help murder Slavs in the east because they were saying thank you to Hitler.

But they were saying 'thank you' for helping overthrow the democratically elected government of Spain. There was no 'Bolshevik uprising'.

Your speculations on possible excuses for the murderous intervention of the Falange et al is irrelevant. That's why it's obfuscation.

Much like the 'fighting on the Eastern Front' was horrible sideline is too I'm afraid.

The SS weren't brutally attacked by some passing Russian civilians and had to retaliate.

They were carrying out Hitlers orders through Nazi Party ideology, murdering Slavs and Jews, completely outside any fighting (triggered by Germany's invasion of course). So any tosh about moral equivalence is another obfuscation I'm afraid.

We were talking about the SS (I know the OP had a wider remit but it wasn't about hierarchies of 'evil').

The SS deserves no respect because its members didn't join up as simple fighting men (the Wehrmacht was there for that) they joined up as ideological murderers whose role was based on eugenicist balderdash and brutal anti-Abrahamic religious principles of devil take the hindmost. How anyone with a dash of sanity can respect that is beyond me.

Coming late to the debate and addressing the original question, I don't have to respect anyone for their "fighting skills", any more than I have to respect a serial killer for their stalking skills or a drug dealer for their commercial savvy.

You get respect for the ends you apply your skills towards, not for merely having them.

When all is said and done, the Nazis started a war that killed millions and they did so in the name of open aggression and national aggrandizement. There were plenty of just normal folks in the Nazi army and, certainly, I won't tar and feather all Germans with the same brush. But no, I don't think anyone has to respect anyone else, simply because they are good at something, particularly killing.

Same applies to ISIS.

.There are plenty of real heroes in the world. I don't need to invent ones.

Nowadays, I play mostly non-historical games for a very good reason…

John T

Though I still study history. However since I got out of over decade in my youth of playing 1 to 1 scale wargames, as an Infantry Officer … 6mm Sci-fi is all I do … now …

There are plenty of real heroes in the world. I don't need to invent ones.

Indeed …

Gwydion wrote – " … The issue was the factual error made (for whatever reason) by Chortle. .

Your speculations on possible excuses for the murderous intervention of the Falange et al is irrelevant. That's why it's obfuscation"

…. Perhaps that was YOUR issue. What makes you imagine my comment about the Mexican Cristeros experience was specifically responding to it? I'll agree that it was irrelevant to your personal crusade/fixation, but that is because I was not responding to you in particular.

But "obfuscation"? Hardly. You do seem to be unusually self pre-occupied, which makes you much too busy to carry on any sort of rational conversation with other people.

Have a nice day.

B

I understood precisely what you wrote…. Concentrating on the minor and irrelevant

You didn't understand what I wrote. Someone posted a list of SS atrocities for a single month on the eastern front. I said we couldn't trust Soviet claims because they had lied blatantly. From the Nuremberg transcripts I quickly found they had invented two non-existent methods of mass execution and put this evidence into murder trials. We know they lied about Katyn. They also told camp survivors their relatives were dead, when in fact they were alive. These are material to Soviet accusations of massacres by the SS on the eastern front and they are very serious.

Chortle's use of my quote is a perfect example of selective and disingenuous misquoting

You mentioned that a particular camp wasn't an extermination camp. Some of the evidence I found concerns that camp. This told me that one of the camps for which the Soviets had invented fake mass extermination methods wasn't an extermination camp at all. I mentioned this.

I guess that you are just following some strategy from "Rules for radicals". It it hard to believe that this is really your level of comprehension. Otherwise, please put the bottle down ;-)

People should be judged on their actual crimes. Everyone should have the due process of law. When the Soviets lied at Nuremberg they cast a shadow over the whole process.

On the subject of the Soviets and their deceptions, this is a video of a KGB defector "Bezmenov" from the mid 1980s. My favorite bit is when is explains what will happen to Lenin's "useful idiots" towards the end
YouTube link

Blutarski, you said

….. It is indeed possible that the Spanish Nationalists were inspired to act after witnessing the dire consequences resulting from the ascension to power of the socialist regime of Plutarco Calle in Mexico.

Which follows on directly from my comment correcting Chortle's factual error – if that isn't the point it seems you don't understand the basic rules of a conversation. Seems like you did the right thing dropping it.

Chortle:
Ain't a radical – I suspect I've done rather a lot more to defend democracy from Soviet Communism for example than you ever did.

I also like to keep people straight on the facts about the SS and the evidence about the Nazi murder of millions of innocent people in the 1930s and 1940s.

If you have to resort to name calling and insults about being drunk that perfectly illustrates the reliance that can be placed on your 'doubts' (which have the same validity as your grasp of who led the Spanish uprising).

One might add that if the big concern of Hitler was to stop Stalin, they probably should have bought some maps, since neither Norway, Denmark, France, Belgium or Holland appear to be in the direction of Russia.

Its the long way round, Rothschild sold them the maps, they were saving us first, they never invaded them it was a Soviet propaganda lie.

Of course the Nazis equated Communism with the Jews and frequently quoted ridiculously over the top statistics about what a high percentage of the Bolshevik leadership were Jews, equating Bolshevik with 'Jew'. Something that some current Holocaust deniers and anti-Semites do even to this day.

As much as his comments re the Holocaust, Chortle's comments re who owns the media and that 'Neo-Nazi and Anti-Semite are just trick terms to close down a debate…intended to stop people seeing genuine underlying conflicts of interest' give away his real views. Never mind denying the Holocaust, there is no such thing as anti-semitism it appears in his view(because what – all, in his view, so called 'anti-semites' are doing is legitimately pointing out 'conflicts of interest'? – conflicts of interest? the Rothschilds started WW1 to make more profits and ultimately that the Jews are the invisible rulers of the world, manipulating us Goyim for their benefit whilst chopping up children to use for arcane rituals?). This is just a variant of the old 'well if the Jews are so persecuted and disliked everywhere then is the problem with the persecutors or with the Jews? – it must be their fault really' – which leads on the old 'no there was no Holocaust but there should have been cos the Jews deserved it'.

Chortle seems to be happy to imply that those who disagree with him are either reading from a script and/or 'Useful Idiots' of World Bolshevism/Jewry. if he wants to put it that way, then he just seems to be working from the anti-semites handbook that says if we can just discredit the Holocaust enough, then we can make anti-semitism respectable again – which is kind of like trying to make racism respectable again. I did once have the pleasure of being told by an American (when I disagreed with his theory that Hitler and most of the leading Nazis were part of a Jewish conspiracy to discredit anti-semitism)that one day all the Jew lovers like me would be rounded up by the British Army (good of him to speak for my country's armed forces) and dealt with.

Personally btw living in the UK, I don't see Nazi/anti-German etc stories in the media everyday (planted by the evil cabal of Zionist media barons and their minions). Must be the papers I read!

PS I am sorry to see that Flecktarn was banned – aside from his perspective, it was great to think how much it must have annoyed 'they had lovely uniforms' types to have a German professional soldier on with his views – I imagine screams of "You are a traitor to the Fatherland" must have been shouted at the screen by people (in English) in various parts of the world!

Internet rule 95.7; no discussion on the SS can end well, unless all participants have their own replica uniforms hanging in the wardrobe, so I'm not entirely surprised that this this thread nosed over and is now heading down to meet its own shadow. What I am surprised about is that it's taken a diversion through the hinterland of historical revisionism, and is a short hop away from a truly grotesque place, one where major events can be expunged from the record because of technicalities in the accounts of some players, and replaced by ‘unfettered' views that reveal the ‘truth', which is very different from what the ‘establishment' want you to believe. It's not far away, and they always welcome new members.

Editor, officer of the deck, whoever – this site is titled The Miniatures Page, a web magazine for miniature war gamers (I assume that full sized gamers are allowed as well, not just miniature ones). Posters are cautioned to avoid swearing, direct personal insults, political references and religious bigotry. You're getting the swearing, but I suggest you're missing a lot of the rest. Have you really not noticed the change in atmosphere around here lately, have you really not questioned some of the ‘helpful links' being offered? I've seen poisonous posts around here before, but there's been a marked change recently (perhaps, perhaps not, tied to the Ultras…sorry, Ultra-moderns board). Not too many posts translating to miniature figures on their on a given day.

I know, freedom of speech, people can say what they want so long as they remain in the rules of engagement, of course if you're skilled enough with language you can meet the rules while still, I don't know, questioning the veracity of accounts of genocide (though you're not saying they ‘didn't' happen, just querying the bookkeeping, and if the books are not absolutely straight, well…), offer that certain religious or ethnic groups are working towards a predetermined aim (not saying it's a conspiracy of course, just that they know one another and go to the same place one day a week, and they will be talking about ‘things'). Some people are good at that stuff, letting you hear things they didn't say, so it can't be them, must be you.

I've been keeping an eye on this particular thread, despite telling myself not to, part of me thinking ‘this is really wrong and X needs calling out on that post', and part of me thinking, ‘do you really want to go down this wretched route again, having two tenths of what you said quoted back at you every other post because and having to respond, because we all know that the last poster in a 250+ reply thread WINS!'. Well, I can't be bothered, because cogent arguments have already been made as to the bankruptcy of Nazi ideology (original or neo), the actuality of it being responsible for mass murder on an industrial scale (coming second in that category by the way does not make you a better ideology, it just makes you a murderer), and that continuing to rain sleights upon people for their race, religion, or whatever pigeon hole you're most comfortable with, rather than judging them on their actions, really don't fill the world with rainbows and ponies.

Now for those of you searching for the stifle or ignore button, or dissecting the above for live grenades to throw back, save yourself the effort because I'm hitting eject. I'm not up for an internet table tennis match, and I've got stuff to do (don't we all).

Gary

And back to the topic – surely this is similar to conflating courage etc with morally positive values. Courage and military skill etc are morally neutral. Bank robbers can be brave as can suicide bombers – that doesn't make me respect them. Its part to me of the tabloid view of the world – all murderers are weird and ugly and loners (as opposed to often looking like the person next door), all bullies are cowards – from what I can see from miliary history at least, quite a lot of bullies were brave but that still doesn't make them good people or to be admired. The classic example of this is the way in which people say ref Hitler after discussing all the terrible things that happened "well he did win the Iron Cross in WW1" – so what? that because he was a megalomaniac we expect him to be a coward or something. I'm sure he was brave, as were people who subsequently turned out to be child molesters etc.

It is indeed possible that the Spanish Nationalists were inspired to act after witnessing the dire consequences resulting from the ascension to power of the socialist regime of Plutarco Calle in Mexico.
--------------
Blutarski – you can say that but is there one bit of evidence to support that. I've read quite a lot about the SCW and whilst there are many reasons ascribed for the rebellion that's one I have never heard mentioned. There were quite enough issues going on inside Spain without the rebels needing to look to Mexico – I really don't think that most Spaniards point of reference was what had happened 7 years before in an ex-colony of theirs – at the very least to support that pov would expect to hear it mentioned in the memoirs of some of the rebels etc.

Gwydion – You appear to believe that everything revolves around you and your opinions, that all "conversation" is governed and interpreted by whatever you wish it to mean. Sorry, but that is just not so and your desperate efforts to dominate the discussion here are really troubling … to put it politely.

B

Blutarski
Since Gwydion is a fellow Taff (and I am not him btw!!) I have to say that i really don't see him governing the conversation – he was just pointing out that Chortles comment was incorrect and that the Fascists were not back by the Bolsheviks in their unlawful rebellion against a legitimate elected govt and the relevance to the overall subject of the topic of what may have inspired the rebels (as the conversation has split into 2 threads essentially one on the Holocaust and one on the SS). I don't see that as him imposing his views

Gary
Though you are not on the thread to hear it – well put!! Your summary of the world view of the conspiracy theorist: "just querying the bookkeeping, and if the books are not absolutely straight, well…" and "not saying it's a conspiracy of course, just that they know one another and go to the same place one day a week, and they will be talking about ‘things' " is brilliant -esp the 'things' bit!

GNREP8 – I don't assert that I found any documentary evidence to the effect that it was definitely an issue, only that it possibly could have been an influence. Having read on Plutarco Calles and the Cristero War, I saw certain similarities between Spain and Mexico in the areas of stress that arose between Calles' socialist regime and the conservative right, particularly with respect to the relationship of the Catholic Church to both the state and with society in general. It was a stress that produced very similar levels of hatred and atrocity. The Mexican Cristero phenomenon was contemporary to the period of Spanish political unrest and could hardly have been ignored in Spanish political and intellectual circles of the time.

B

Diolch Stuart .

Blutarski – Who's trying to dominate anything? For 'dominate' read 'not accepting obfuscatory drivel as fact'.

I was just pointing out it was a matter of fact – not opinion – that the 'Nationalists' – ie Fascists – were the ones who carried out the illegal uprising in Spain not the Republicans – ie the Government, who were most decidedly not Bolsheviks.

If that's 'dominating' a discussion – so be it – facts tend to – as oppose to wild speculation and made up doubts.

You come up with some proof that 'Bolsheviks' led an uprising against the legitimate Government of Spain and I'll talk.

Likewise if there is significant evidence, as oppose to peripheral nitpicking, that the Holocaust didn't happen I'll discuss it with anyone – but there isn't any so I won't be holding my breath.

You said you were happy for me to have my opinion. That seems to have changed. But maybe not, as it's not opinion you seem to dislike but the facts.

Well, Gwydion, you have now sped right past the sublime and become officially ridiculous.

Bye Bye.

B

And thank you for your ….contribution?
So no Bolshevik uprising in 1930s Spain – hooray!

We called it TOPP (Canada). And I always hated the one piece suits – murder to do a #2 if you were allowed to (we used TOPP LOW/MEDIUM/HIGH, but that changed a couple of times back and forth to numbers and numbers of levels in my short ten years in). I always admired the Brits as IIRC they had a two piecer.

Sorry for the grossness, but being able to scratch and take a dump are important considerations that never get taken into consideration in wargames. Except as an excuse sometimes for why a top sub-unit gets obliterated in one round of fire rarely in our games… laugh

That's an awesome picture, I knew exactly what was happening the moment Chortle posted it. laugh

Frank, I saw the wall and watch tower – where is that?
-----------------------------------

Yes I hated the MOPP suits…

Brother you haven't lived until you have to go full MOPP 4 with everything on…you sweat like a pig…

You are absolutely right there are a lot of things that you just flat out can't do…

The lowest ranking man is supposed to be the first one to unmask when the all-clear is given, but I think we all know that it would be whoever couldn't stand to be in that S*^% any longer ;)

The wall and watch tower are around the Modlareuth (sp?) area. It was nicknamed "Little Berlin" because IIRC that was the only place that the border went right through the middle of a town besides in Berlin itself (which was of course way deep inside the DDR- East Germany).

I uploaded several other pictures to my Germany 86 album in photobucket…

You will notice that when the border runs through the countryside you have the fences, plowed minefields, and towers. Since the border meanders here and fro I was able to get several pics from an angle that allows you to see behind the border.

Again I would like to request that we show each other more decorum in this thread please. Some of the members are getting tarred and feathered for pointing out other regimes that committed evil just as the SS did.

I personally don't believe that Chortle is in any way denying what the SS did, merely that the Soviets did many of the same things and lied about their atrocities as well and tried to pin some of their own atrocities on the Nazis…

As I said before, the SS and Nazis were not the only evil regime that should be reviled… others had their hands covered in blood as well.

Hopefully we can bear that in mind, make up, and move on from some of the venom and bile that have been spilled in this thread.

In the end we are all fellow gamers. This forum should be a place where we share insights and suggestions with each other in a friendly and welcoming environment…not a place for strife and stress…

Frank

The Spanish Blue Division was composed of volunteers in thanks for Germany's help against the Bolshevik backed uprising in Spain.

You should check your facts. It was the Army who rebelled against the Republic, not the Communists. The Communists actually supported the Republic -as ordered from Moscow-.

zaevor2000 wrote

Some of the members are getting tarred and feathered for pointing out other regimes that committed evil just as the SS did.

No tar, no feathers just conversation. Just trying to maintain focus and correct Chortles factual errors and Blutarski's clairvoyant powers on dead people's imagined intentions.

I personally don't believe that Chortle is in any way denying what the SS did,

Really? I thought this, particularly the quotes around 'some', suggested he had serious doubts about at least 'some' of the Holocaust.

Chortle said

My points are that at least *some* of this evidence is made up

zaevor2000 wrote

As I said before, the SS and Nazis were not the only evil regime that should be reviled… others had their hands covered in blood as well.

Nobody said they were the only ones in history. But we were talking about not respecting the SS because of their part in organising and carrying out mass murder in the camps, murder in the East as ideological policy and murdering civilians and POWs in the West when they started getting their backsides kicked in 44/45.

Again, someone else doing something evil does not excuse you from being evil.

I mean, the Mongols, by percentage of population killed, might have the record for most evil of all time, but I don't see a lot of people lining up to say that Mao was not evil, because well, the Mongols were worse.

It's nonsense.

As an aside, you can probably argue that the most evil in the world is a bunch of men with ideas about text book ideas about economics.
Whether the famines in 30's USSR, China under Mao or India under British rule, all it takes is an idealistic view of economics to condemn millions to death.

Dear Weasel

If that's what you think then you REALLY should read Conquest's "Reflections on a Ravaged Century."

You apparently are not as "red" as you said you were. (joking).

But you are right, evil is evil, and one person doing it does not excuse another, nor does good intentions, nor does good deeds cancel out the evil. The mafia boss who gives lavishly to the church or endows an orphanage does a good deed, but that will not wash away one drop of blood on his hands.

As a prime example, When I was in grad school in the 90's I took a jog through environmental history. There were people in the course who were studying it to get a job in the EPA and the Department of interior who were passionate devotees of Poppers idea of "Buffalo nation." This was nothing less that we should move ALL people and ALL human habitation out of the States Of North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Kansas, Wyoming Colorado, Nebraska, Iowa, Oklahoma, North Texas and Utah and make it a vast game preserve for the Buffalo. (I'm not making this up! Popper has produced several papers on this and he has a lobbying group in Washington.

When I asked the students who thought this was great "What about the people who have spent all their lives there, who have business there, who have worked and improved the land, and have lifelihoods thare. They just shrugged and said, they'll have to fend for themselves.

When I brought up that these states produce huge amounts of wheat and corn, soybeans, sorghum, and grains for feed, and the whole diary, pork, beef, and poultry industry would collapse without them and millions would starve, they again just shrugged and said, They'll have to live off rationing.

Then one of them said "Well if we have to manage the wildlife herd's we'll have to manage the human herds as well. Maybe we'll have to let some of them starve."

There it is…

I think human experience broadly shows that incremental changes are both more successful, more stable and more likely to be corrected for errors.

So that makes me a pretty bad revolutionary :)

Dear Weasel

Of course they are. Look at progress of any business. A Business that goes up like a rocket frequently comes down like a stick. Regular, steady, slow incremental grown makes a business solid and unshakeable. it's the same with anything.

Yes Weasel, sorry to say,, you're not doing the revolutionary thing by the book. Maybe you're a little bit of conservative in there.

Otto

Irrelevant picture…

[Picture of Bergen-Belsen camp removed, in respect of the Moderator's judgement of relevance.]

I had hoped to be done with this thread. I find the task of writing here to be roughly akin to picking up my back yard after the dog. It stinks. The smell is awful. And I know where the stink comes from. And I know that no matter how much I try to clean it up, the source of the original stink will continue to deposit more piles of stink.

I've seen this before. If not stopped, it will poison the air, and yet another historical chat domain will fall victim to the pestilence of historical revisionism.

But they say that all that is required for evil to win, is for good men to remain silent. And so back in I go, holding my nose and my breath …

You didn't understand what I wrote. Someone posted a list of SS atrocities for a single month on the eastern front. I said we couldn't trust Soviet claims because they had lied blatantly.

I find it … interesting(?) … to see which individual wants to open the question of who lies blatantly.

As the one who wrote that list of massacres, perhaps I should add some more information here.

First, the list was not, as asserted above, a list of atrocities for a single month on the eastern front. It was a list of deliberate mass killings (lots of atrocities don't rise to that level), and it was ONLY the mass killings in Belarus. If you wanted the list for all the massacres on the eastern front you would need to add the lists for Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Georgia, Armenia Ukraine and Russia to that list. What a convenient bending of the truth … just a minor change of words to help hide the magnitude of the truth. Just one small injection of doubt.

Second, the list of massacres did not, as asserted above, come from Soviet sources. Another small bit of doubt that can be slid in to the conversation? After all, it's so easy to whip up anti-Soviet sentiments … so that it's easier to promote a vision of the poor misunderstood Nazis?

But we do not need to rely on the Soviets for lists of where massacres on the Eastern Front took place. We have the fine skills of the British code breakers (and, interestingly enough, the French military intercept service, who continued to pass intercepts on to their former allies for two years after the French armistice with the Germans), who decoded most of the daily reports of the massacres on the Eastern Front during 1941 and most of 1942. The Germans, at that time, were still meticulous in their record keeping and reporting. So the details of the actions of the death squads in the east are very well documented, without any need to ask the Soviets.

§ The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden)
Yes, Sir, I regret to have to inform the House that reliable reports have recently reached His Majesty's Government regarding the barbarous and inhuman treatment to which Jews are being subjected in German-occupied Europe. … His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom have as a result been in consultation with the United States and Soviet Governments and with the other Allied Governments directly concerned, and I should like to take this opportunity to communicate to the House the text of the following declaration which is being made public to-day at this hour in London, Moscow and Washington:
"The attention of the Governments of Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Luxemberg, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, the United States of America, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Yugoslavia, and of the French National Committee has been drawn to numerous reports from Europe that the German authorities, not content with denying to persons of Jewish race in all the territories over which their barbarous rule has been extended the most elementary human rights, are now carrying into effect Hitler's oft repeated intention to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe.

Of course the British government did not go public with their code-breaking successes. But still, they went public with the conclusions of what they had learned. It is only in very recent years that all of the data that was read from German communications became available for historians to study.

The accounting of how many were killed in which places in 1941 and 42 is quite complete. To suggest that it is unreliable because you can't trust them russkies is a clever ruse, but 100% fabricated.

From the Nuremberg transcripts I quickly found they had invented two non-existent methods of mass execution and put this evidence into murder trials.

Such impressive historical research skills! And yet, the individual who wrote this seems to have had no skills for finding or identifying the truth.

Completely missed in his research was the part about how the particular death camp he wrote about had labelled it's gas chambers as "showers". And how those who were to be gassed were segregated into men, and women and children, told to strip, and to line-up to shower before entering the camp. And then they went into the "showers" alive, the doors were sealed, and 20 minutes later they were carried out dead. And his research missed how that particular camp and all of it's death chambers were destroyed by the SS before the Red Army arrived, so all they had was the testimony of the survivors … that about 80% of new arrivals at the camp went into the showers, and were carried out dead 20 minutes later, and so the survivors that the Red Army interviewed, the survivors among the 20% who were kept for slave labor, could only guess how the showers worked.

Well, perhaps he does have the skills to find and identify the truth. But he also has the skills to hide it in his argumentation.

They also told camp survivors their relatives were dead, when in fact they were alive.

Yes, well, isn't it amazing that after the biggest catastrophe in human history, after years of war, 10s of millions of people killed, again as many displaced, and half of Europe left in ruins, that one individual received incorrect information about the fate of a relative half a continent away?

But why would we accept the simple possibility … that someone was given the wrong information through accident or incompetence? That doesn't help the story of Russian lies, so we will ignore that possibility. Far better to accept one person getting bad information as clear evidence that you can't trust the whole story, huh? The Soviets made up the whole thing. Probably made up the whole story of the war, even, and convinced the British to bomb Germany for no reason. Sure, that's it.

These are material to Soviet accusations of massacres by the SS on the eastern front and they are very serious.

So let us be clear among ourselves. This poster claims that "accusations of massacres" are not true.

You mentioned that a particular camp wasn't an extermination camp. Some of the evidence I found concerns that camp. This told me that one of the camps for which the Soviets had invented fake mass extermination methods wasn't an extermination camp at all. I mentioned this.

And yet, with all of his skills in historical research, he managed to miss the part that the camp in question was involved in mass exterminations.

The fact that Bergen-Belsen was not an extermination camp does not mean that it was not involved in mass murder. Over 50,000 people died at Bergen-Belsen. It was the British Army that liberated that camp, and the photographic documentation of what Bergen-Belsen was is quite explicit.

This is what the concentration camp system was all about. Death. But still, not all camps were "death camps". Some camps, like Dachau or Buchenwald, were "labor camps". They worked people to death. The goal was to get an average of about 6 months of productive labor out of each slave before he/she died. Some camps, like Bergen-Belsen, were "transit and recovery" camps. They were set up to house the people marked for death. People who were too weak to travel could be housed as they starved to death or died of contagious diseases, so that they wouldn't clog up the rail lines. Those that were unlikely to die soon were transported to "death camps". The "death camps", such as Treblinka or Auschwitz, which were all in Poland, were where killings could be done on a scale far beyond the other camps … where masses of people could be killed as quickly as they could be transported in.

(By a different poster, also objecting to the methods of the holocaust denier in our midst)
Chortle's use of my quote is a perfect example of selective and disingenuous misquoting …

Yes. He will seize on any quote offered by another in this chat, and on any aspect of the historical record, that he can distort to his purpose, in order to push his claim that the holocaust did not occur as we know it did.

Don't underestimate what is happening here on TMP. This is not someone who has been misinformed, or who is pursuing an honest and balanced investigation of the historical record. This is not an individual seeking to understand history at all. He has demonstrated his skills in historical research. He has demonstrated that he has been schooled in the art of argumentative deception.

He has given us several clues into his intentions. He wants to convince anyone who does NOT have his depth of knowledge that what actually happened, did not happen. He does not seek to understand history, but to re-write history.

He continues to use the same 3 ingredient recipe that has been seen dozens of times in dozens of other historical chat domains.
1 ) Injection of doubt.
2 ) The calculus of comparative morality.
3 ) Blame shifting.

As in those other chat domains, it becomes impossible to continue the conversation while he is in our midst. Like trying to play lawn games without picking up after the dog … many of us will wind up stepping in it, and the stink will get stuck to our shoes and stay with us for hours after we leave.

If we want to continue to play here, we need to pick up our yard before we can continue our otherwise enjoyable games.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Thank you again, Mark.

Excellent post Mark.
Your patience is way beyond mine. Well done.

I personally don't believe that Chortle is in any way denying what the SS did, merely that the Soviets did many of the same things and lied about their atrocities as well and tried to pin some of their own atrocities on the Nazis…

Zaevor, my friend, I believe you are mistaken.

You may recall me from multiple other military history fora, where I have assisted you from my position as moderator. You may not have as much experience as I do with the patterns that have been presented here. You are welcome to believe as you choose, but I'd like to connect a few of the dots here, just on the off chance that it helps you better perceive the picture…

In my last post above I highlighted a few examples of injection of doubt. Let's look at the other principle ingredients of the holocaust denial movement…

An American Army commission into prisoner abuse found that, out of 139 German prisoners investigated, all but two had their testicles kicked beyond repair.

This is a perfect example of the calculus of comparative morality. Gosh, the Americans tortured German prisoners. See, the Nazi's aren't unique … everyone is the same!

Notice the careful use of the statistic. Out of 139 prisoners, all but two had suffered this torture. Wow, that's a lot, huh?

Neglected to mention that the commission in question only examined cases were there was a suspicion of mistreatment. Let's put some context on it … 137 out of 139 is a big proportion. But what was the population of prisoners that were not mistreated? About 6,600,000 Germans were taken prisoner during the war by US and British forces. Somewhere between 7,000 and 12,000 perished in the PW system from all causes (that is fewer than 1/5th of 1% … an amazingly low death rate given that many came in wounded or sick or malnourished).

As we see, we have documented evidence that at least 137 had been kicked in the testicles – which is certainly evidence of mistreatment. It is gratifying to see that it was investigated by a commission. But perhaps 137 out of 6,600,000 offers a bit more perspective than 137 out of 139?

This is why we call it "the calculus of …" You kinda gotta play with the numbers a bit to make the Nazis case, ‘cause on the numbers alone they lose every time!

"It may not have been a death camp but what it was was bad enough."

I agree. Conditions were terrible at the end of the war. The allies had bombed the **** out of the road and rail network. Food and medicine were short. This is a really good reason for avoiding wars. Some "modern" leaders seem to be mad keen to drag us into conflicts.

An interesting example of blame shifting, with a sprinkling of comparative morality on top. Yeah, those poor folks who lost their lives in the concentration camps probably died because the allies had bombed the road and rail networks, right? Blame those western allies! But this kind of stuff happens in every war – so you better tell your politicians not to go to war!

The poor Nazis didn't have enough transport capacity to carry food for all those people they had in the camps! But they still had enough capacity left to gather up more than 420,000 Hungarian jews in May and June of 1944, and to transport them to Poland for extermination in Auschwitz.

I guess it was just a matter of priorities.

I think things happen for understandable reasons.

PAUSE

This is the perfect opening statement for blame shifting.

Really. Folks, when you see these words in a discussion of massacres and crimes, put your antenna up!

Not that this statement, in and of itself, is wrong or unreasonable. It is the very reasonableness of this statement that makes it so effective. But when you see it, put your antenna up for what follows!

I think things happen for understandable reasons. …

The war is long over but the Nazis are in the news every day. It causes each successive generation to jump when they hear the word Nazi. There is an agenda there. People are being played.

Which builds on the earlier statement:

Who owns the media? No friends of the Germans. Now we see daily Nazi stories in the news. Films like "Inglorious Bastards" celebrate torture of random German soldiers.

This is an example of blame shifting, with a sprinkling of doubt injection. Those poor Nazi's are betting a bad rap! It's the media … they are playing you! And we all know who controls the media, right? And the one film picked out as an archtype? The one film … out of all the movies ever made about World War 2? Of course it is the one film in which some jewish-American soldiers mistreat the Germans.

What an interesting coincidence that is! Or maybe it isn't.

Let me try to put a nice ribbon around it all:

"I met an SS vet once…"

I remember him. I think his name was Werner. …

He told me that today people are soft and that a eugenics program would be a good thing. I gave him the analogy of the modern western orange. It looks great on the outside but tastes like nothing. … I explained that human intervention in breeding selected for superficial traits and let everything else go to hell. His eyes went wide and he nodded in agreement. No one had ever bothered to discuss his views seriously before.

Just think about that for a bit. Really. Give it some thought. His words, not mine.

As you have said, you have to understand the threat. So … just give it a bit of thought.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Thanks again, Mark.

I, too, was stunned by the eugenics remark, and debating commenting, but thought better of it. I'm glad you pointed it out, and much more civilly than I would have.

I do hope Bill is reading your posts.