"How to capture a brigade or division" Topic

Hello all,

I was just reading over the days leading up to Wagram and noted a situation (just after Teugan-Hausen I believe) where the French managed to capture severla thousand Austrian soldiers and their supply train. I'm sure some on here know the exact event off hand, but I can't really research it at the moment myself.

At any rate, the capture of units this large is one thing I'm very interested in being able to show in my operational level rules. I wonder, what exact conditions would have to be met to show such an event? Are there any hard and fast condditions that might allow for it? Say, the cutting of the divisions LOC along with certain odds? Or would it be better to allow the dice rolls (a one sided victory, a 6 and a 1, for instance) determine this?

Any thoughts?

Vandamme's corps also had it happen to them in 1813, Also Dupont in Spain 1809(?) and Mack in 1805. Basically you have to convince them that overwhelming forces have them hemmed in entirely. Were I making a surrender rule I'd make the pre-requisite "All surrounding roads have forces of equal strength blocking." and give a die roll based on the commander's resolve (however you measure it). Worst chance of surrender would be the guard or Davout, best probably Bernadotte…
If they don't surrender I'd give them vastly reduced forces that travelled cross-country to friendly lines.

That's an awesome answer and will work perfectly with what I'm doing. Thanks. Oddly enough, that is pretty similar to the game Go. Really similar.

Four more examples :
- v. Klengel's brigade (Saxons) at Gorodetchna (out-numbered, lines of communications cut, surrendered after taking heavy losses)
- Partonneaux's division at Borisov (rather inexperienced troops, lost in the snow, lots of Russians around)
- v. Yorck's Prussian corps (figured out that they were on the wrong side of the war and decided to become neutral instead of fighting as a painfully exposed rear-guard against lots of Russians)
- the still-living among the ~40,000 "stragglers" abandoned by the French at the Beresina (starving, freezing, dying in the snow, their escape impossible as the French burned the bridges, lots of Russians around)

"If they don't surrender I'd give them vastly reduced forces that travelled cross-country to friendly lines."
Sometimes the units held and cut their way out. An example would be Neverovskiy's division before Smolensk.

- Sasha

I think the key to "formation surrender" is when the troops have been broken and morale collapsed.

Normally a capture of such large forces would occur when formations have suffered exhaustion and collapse following a hard fight or sequence of events; they tend not to surrender if still in good order as they would be more interested in breaking out.

Volley and Bayonet have Division Exhaustion and Division Collapse rules that are worth a look – casualties and morale status are so low that the division cannot get back into good order; although it doesn't mention surrender specifically it won't be too hard to add a few extra notes to achieve that.

As I recollect the 1809 situation was not a complete formation surrender in the manner of other examples. The prisoners were gathered up in many smaller groups as the corps concerned disintegrated. Bridging equipment and supply trains were abandoned as they couldn't get them along roads or over rivers.

Division or brigade collapse is something worth simulating in grand tactical games. It is easy to create rules for combat exhaustion and blocked escape. Less easy when it is commander's morale that has collapsed on a misunderstanding or disagreement with commander. Not a surrender, but the collapse of Gazan's Army of the Midi at Vitoria is a case in point here. Actually it was premature unauthorised retreat, no doubt because he feared being cut off and forced to surrender… so not the same thing.