"How would you rate the Herman Goering division?" Topic

As far as armored divisions in the German Army went, was it mediocre, average or excellent?

Seems average to good for the most part. They fought practically everywhere the Germans went but the unit was also destroyed and rebuilt in Africa.

Wouldn't rate them as "excellent" but they can probably get away with "good" or "pretty decent".

Average Panzer division that had the benefit of being one of Goring's divisions so was kept up to strength and TO&E at a better level. Otherwise nothing special IMHO.

Have to agree with 21eRegt. They were mostly FJ in name only, as few actually had that training at that point in the war. They had primo equipment because they were Goring's baby, but, yeah, nothing special.

If they were recruited from the Luftwaffe, they were probably more intelligent than average. That should have made some difference. Otoh, the LW Field Divisions were not very good.

Several of the regular Wehrmacht panzer divisions were extremely effective fighting units, achieving remarkable results on battlefields in several theaters. Others were not.

From 1943 onward Wehrmacht Panzer Divisions almost never fought at anything like full TOE strength, so even the high performing divisions had reduced combat potential. By mid-1944 new Wehrmacht armored formations, the Panzer Brigades, were also being fielded. Their TOE strength had as many tanks as a Panzer Division (though fewer supporting arms and trails). They were more often seen at or near full TOE strength, and yet often performed very poorly. So as far as armored formations in the German Army went, "average" is a difficult concept to settle on.

From mid-1943 onward the HG Division seems to have performed pretty consistently in combat. Goering managed to shield his "pet" division from the widely swinging supply difficulties of the Wehrmacht panzer troops.

I would say it was a competent force with good levels of manpower and equipment. Little more. Better than most Panzer Brigades, stronger than most Panzer Divisions (though not as competent as several), not as strong nor as competent as Panzergrenadier Division GrossDeutchland.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

At least average, or better than average. Esprit de Corps would have been pretty good overall as the training battalions could still provide decent troops. They may not have had the full FJ jump training, they were still being told they were a better crop than the average grunt.

According to Patton it's "The best outfit the Germans have" or something to that effect. In the movie he says that to the press to give the impression that he is facing tougher opposition than Monty in Sicily. Is that just Hollywood or did he really say that?

HG was one of the divisions analysed by Dupuy in 'Numbers, Predictions and War'

Normalised to take account of differences in strengths, equipment, terrain, posture, air support etc it made the top three German divisions with a normalised relative combat effectiveness of 0.95. Only 11th Panzer and iirc one of the FJ divisions was any better. Most 'Normal' Heer and SS divisions were in the .60s, Allies in the .50s and .60s.

Why is of course a different question, low personnel turnover? good esprit de corps? good training? special uniforms? who knows.

So, based on the quantitive data, I'd say as good as your rules can make them – Veteran/Elite/Fearless Veteran or whatever.

Confident Trained.

*ducks*

Is that just Hollywood or did he really say that?

Well the film is so historically accurate that Patton must have said it

I would rate their morale as average or better; while they were not exactly elite, they were very well equipped and as I recall had much better replacement ratios than most German units, so would have been much closer to their TO&E than a lot of other German units

The Luftwaffe Field Divisions were built out of surplus Luftwaffe personnel – their performance – mostly average to mediocre – is what you might expect from taking airforce ground crews and turning them into infantry

The equivalent of an SS Panzer Division, so far as equipment and numbers are concerned.

Dupuy actually gives them the highest rating out of the 12 divisions (5 infantry/para, 7 pzr/pzrgr) sampled out of 81 engagements for the western front for overall combat effectiveness, superior to Pzr Lehr, 11th, 16th,pzr et all.
Dupuy rates them as a 99% cev, compared with for example US 4th armd as 64%
Definitly a high quality unit.

Good on defense, weak in midfield and could use a couple of decent forwards if they ever want to get in the play offs