"LOOK MA! No dice" Topic

I've been experimenting for a while with different arrangements of dice. Combining different faced die, a-symmetrical die, dice with gaps in the numbers (1,3,5,7,9,11,) and another with 0,2,4,6.8,10. AND assymetcal in that the faces are slightly different.

I recently ginned up a set of wargame rules for the ancient world which used instead of dice, throwing sticks, as they really used in the ancient world. These are pieces of simple half-round molding cut into 8" lengths. As such they also function as measuring sticks for movement. The rounded face is painted black, and the flat face white. The black face has a thin red band halfway up which is melee range.

Anyway the game considers by the number of white faces tossed. You toss three sticks, and the number of white faces is the score. This can be used for simple numeric comparisons, or for invoking "Gods". It works rather well and destroys the ingrained "probability" counting dice have. In some ways it's more truly random and is probably more akin to the tossed coin, only three of them at once.

The next thing I am considering is if I used quarter round molding I could have a black rounded side, and the other two flat sides could be white and say green. The only problem I see with this is determining what happens when the stick lands with the rounded (black) face down. How do you determine whether it is the white or the green face that is up? Also, would it be worthwhile if the "off-black" face was considered. For example, if the stick lands with the white face down or the green face down, thus making the other colored face be part of the black face roll? What I mean is one result for a black face up with the green side showing and one for the black face up with the white showing. On the tosses with the black face down and the greena and white up, the problem remains as to which face do you count?

Interesting is that depending on what sort or other lumber bric-a-brackery you use for the sticks. Triangular sections, etc.

Another method for the ancient games or even medieval I am thinking of is runes. This would be having a set of small wooden pieces (you can get them for tiling at hobby stores etc) and take a handful and throw them. The runes on one side the other blank. Whatever comes up is the result. No need bothering with the folderol of actual runes, simply write the results on the tiles.

I do this a lot. I've even figured out a way of using Tarot Cards for combat resolution. It's cumbersome but it can yield very interesting results. For example.

On the tosses with the black face down and the green and white up, the problem remains as to which face do you count?

Count the face that is down. Even when the green or white face is "up", so is the black rounded face …

Actually, I would be more concerned about the fact that you cannot assign any specific probability to which side is thrown. It almost certainly isn't 1/3 for each.

dear Major B.

Good idea!

I understand about probability. That's the point.

Otto

I understand about probability. That's the point.

Then I'm afraid you've lost me. If you don't know what the probabilities generated by your random devices are, how can you calibrate the rules?

Dear Major B.

Remember, the role of dice is as a decision maker. But "decision makers" need not be dice. All we want for them is to make a decision, and if we can have decision on the die themselves we avoid a chart look up.

For example in my WWII naval game I use 8 sided die. Four of the faces are white on each die and one each of red, black, green, and blue. All faces are numbered, event he colored faces. When you fire on an enemy ship you roll a number of die equal to your fire factor (red). For each colored face you roll then you place next to the enemy ship. When the guy you hit gets around to it (firing is simultaneous) then he can roll the colored die, one color at a time, and now simply consult the number. If the number is less than or equal to his damage factor (black) he avoids the hit. If not, it goes through and one strength point in that section (red=fire, black=Damaage control, green-crippling damage, and light blue= speed). Damage control is an amalgam of armor and damage control.

In another game Oh God! Anything but a six, I don't use dice directly. I use a deck of combat results cards. If you have say a charge value of 5 you can put fire cards on any enemy units in melee range and within 45 degrees of your front. The cards are then rolled for to see if they "stick" by your "To stand factor" and those which don't are returned to the deck. The cards rolled have a wide range of results.

You see the only thing we are really interested in is the decision making function of the die. There may be far more efficient methods of doing things.

Major B.

Simple.

The toss of any one stuck can yield a heads or tails like yes or no value, assume black =0 and white =1.

If you think in non-ascending numeric terms it becomes easy.

Assume unit A has very weak fire power, while Unit B has very powerful fire power. If you use inverse values (unit A must get 3 white faces to make a hit while B needs only one white face then Unit A requires three of the three sticks thrown to be white which is .5x.5x.x.5 or a 12.5% chance of making a hit. Unit B which needs only a single stick to show a white face to make a hit would have therefore a corresponding 12.5% chance of missing (throwing all black sticks). While each stick has only a probability of 50% white or black, to roll a set of three or subset of 1 out of three that is white (you don't get additional hits for more white sticks, yields probabilities easily calculated.

Now, also in the game one can gain "favor of the Gods" If you get this for a turn you get for that turn, an extra stick in all tosses and an extra stick in movement. It will help in all the combats where you get an extra stick to roll. Unit A still must throw three white sticks to hit, but it now has an extra stick to attempt to do so.

On the other hand when invoking a God, you must throw the EXACT arrangement of three sticks.

The probabilities are easy.

But then-- do you REALLY want probabiliites, or would you prefer random.

Remember, the role of dice is as a decision maker. But "decision makers" need not be dice. All we want for them is to make a decision,

Yes, I quite undertand that, but the decision making process is predicated on the fact that rolling dice generates a random number. The probability of rolling any given number or range of numbers determines the likelihood of the dice giving a decision one way or another.

The probabilities are easy.

Well, no, they're not. You would think that with your two-sided sticks the probability of throwing each face would be 50%. But that assumes that the material they are made of is perfectly homogenous and that the weight of the colouring of one side does not alter the balance.

As for your three-faced sticks, I have no idea how you could possibly calculate the probability of throwing each face, short of doing it empirically by throwing them about 1000 times and recording the results!

I would be the first to say that dice are not perfect either, but I suspect they are probably more accurate than throwing wooden sticks.

But then-- do you REALLY want probabiliites, or would you prefer random.

I want both. Dice are a random number generator with a specific set of probabilities associated with each possible score.

With cards, you are making a random draw from a set of fixed results, but the probabilities change with each card draw (because onece a particular card has been drawn, you can't draw it again until the pack is reshuffled.

Like the idea but I'm not sure how I feel about people throwing 8" sticks around my figures.

DM

Dear Don

Worked fine. We used 15mm ancients and there were no problems. The sticks are very light

So far no problems. Played three games at a con and there were no gaffs

In fact all said they liked the sticks simply because it was so different.

By the Way Major B, if you're worried about material homogeneity, and don't want to use the pinewood sticks, you can buy the same thing in extruded resin which is perfectly homogeneous. As for the paint- come on! The weight difference is infitesimal.

Otto

As for the paint- come on! The weight difference is infitesimal.

But can still be enough to affect the probability. Unless you test it though, you won't know.

I like your creative ideas but please remember that at the end of the day, the way that random number generators (dice, cards, sticks …) are used in a set of wargame rules need to be calibrated so that the games as played have at least a vague relationship to reality.

Daar Major B

"Vague relationship to reality?"

There's no relationship whatsoever. It's at the best notional, and we haven't evengotten into the question "what's real?"

First of all the scale is so off in 99% of the wargames that any claim to "realism" is ludicrous .

Second,
This is especially true in the ancient world. We have no idea of the real organization or strength of ancient (very ancient) armies was or how they really fought. So it's all just make believe.

Besides, it doesn't matter if there's an infitesimal weighted factor, there's the same sticks for both sides so it's balanced.

"Vague relationship to reality?"

There's no relationship whatsoever. It's at the best notional, and we haven't even gotten into the question "what's real?"

Sorry, what I meant is that when designing a set of rules you want (for example) shooting to be effective, but not so effective that an attacking unit always gets shot to bits before it can close into melee contact.