"Advice on WW2 rules and miniatures" Topic

First time poster, and not one for forums, so be nice! I am looking to get back into wargaming after 30+ years. I have persuaded a friend to play WW2 games with me (we both have a family interest) and am hoping those with experience can pass some on. I have some £s to spend but want to get this right first time, it'll be hard enough to learn one set of rules, so I don't what to chop and change. I'm hoping for a hobby that will see me into retirement.

This post is by way of some final research before I start buying my forces (I have to do both sides as well, my opponent will play, but not paint).

I'm currently not sure what scale to play in, although I want to play proper battles with artillery, aircraft etc, not little skirmishes, so I lean towards 15mm or maybe 20mm from my Airfix youth. Both seem to have excellent availability (compared to the 1970s). 28mm looks very nice, but space will be an issue for me.

Also, not sure on a theatre. Probably NWE, but the desert also appeals.

So, miniatures and rules? I've been looking online, and there seems a big choice. FOW? Bolt Action?

I want good historical accuracy but not too much complexity. The games must be playable in an evening (as that is all we'll have).

Any comments welcome before I take the plunge.

Consider 6mm(1/285-1/300) its far cheaper than all the options you have listed and very quick and easy to paint, and more suitable for bigger games, as for rules im a fan of Blitzkrieg Commander which can work with any scale

20mm and Battlegroup rules.

I'm with Peace Man. Go with smaller figures like 3mm or 6mm. Cheap, easy to paint and looks "grand." Larger scales like 20mm never look like big battles to me. Just big skirmishers.

If you go 3mm your mate might consider painting as base coat, wash and pick out a detail or two does the job:

If you're looking for "proper batlles", then 6mm is the way to go.
If your painting skills are low or rusty, then 6mm is the way to go.
If storage is a factor, then 6mm is the way to go.
If cost is to be taken into account, then 6mm is the way to go.
I think you can see a pattern here. I'm biased BTW :-)

Another vote for 20mm Battlegroup. It is an excellent system and can be played in any scale, but the 20mm stuff has pretty much anything you would ever want available in both plastic and metal, plus the cost is generally equal or less than 15mm.

the Battlegroup rules can be played at any sized engagement-- from squad up to battalion. You can use infantry, tanks, aircraft, and artillery (although most of the time it will be off-board). So far they have released a book for Kursk, Overlord, Fall of the Reich, and Barbarossa. Blitzkrieg and the desert war are next.

Check out The Guild forum guildwargamers.com for more info, battle reports, and for any and all questions you might have about the system.

Welcome back to gaming!!

If you want a skirmish game, Chain of Command from TooFatLardies is an interesting set. Each side fields a platoon of infantry with supports; nad it is very playable in either 15 or 20mm scale.

20mm… Its the 'scale' for WW2. Masses of variety and availability. Still nothing comes close despite the efforts to catch up!

I would second The Guild that Nazrat recommends, we run a forum virtually devoted to 20mm WW2 gaming with lots of pictures…

And if you want further ideas of whats available, feel free to peruse my blog…

ww20mm.blogspot.ie

Good luck with whatever you choose, and don't forget to consider terrain in that choice.

As for rules… Too personal a decision to recommend. I play Battlegroup… But then I write them so Im gonna! ;)

Bolt Action is not for big battles. I don't consider FOW to be a big battle set either.

What size "armies" do you want on a side? A battalion? A brigade? A division? I think the higher you go up in formation, the smaller you need to go in figure scale, so 10mm or less for large actions, in my opinion.

Probably everyone who has played WWII has been through multiple sets looking for the right one and, just because I think a set is "it", that doesn't mean you will.

Personally, I have 1/72 armies.

Welcome aboard!

Welcome back to wargaming.

As Piers says, rules are very personal, depends what size of action you are interested, level of detail and how much 'friction' you are willing to tolerate. You'll get recommendations for everyones personal favourite.

wrt scales, as someone who has WW2 stuff in no less then five scales (including shelf fulls of 6mm and 20mm), if starting from scratch I'd do the lot in 15mm. A good compromise of looks, storage space, ease of transportation and cost. The range is also vast, including lots of plastics, so very similar to youthful memories of Airfix. I've used 15mm for everything from tactical 1 model = 1 vehicle stuff up to operational one base = 1 battalion.

wrt theatre, you really can't go wrong with NWE. Masses of availability, lots of interesting battles and even if the Germans have Tigers and Panthers, the Allies have Fireflies, 76mm Shermans and shedloads of artillery and airpower.

Archi B – I think the place to start is to decide what type of game you want to play before you get on to figure size. Do you want battles between 20 – 40 men a side (roughly a platoon) plus a few tanks in support? If so either 20mm or 15mm would be a good call. There are lots of good systems out there which you could play in an evening but I would recommend Chain of Command by TooFatLardies.

If you want to command more troops (roughly a company of say 2 – 4 platoons each plus support)I would go with 15mm or 12mm(eg Pendraken or Pithead Miniatures); cost will be lower than 20mm and you will get more on the table. We play another TooFatLardies rule set at that scale: I Ain't Been Shot Mum (abbreviated to IABSM). It is a card activation system and so not to everyone's taste but we like it.

If you plan on larger scale battles (say up to a battalion), figure scale should probably drop to 12mm or 6mm as you will need the extra space on the table for manoeuvre. Figure ratio would increase though so you wouldn't be playing at 1 figure = 1 man. I am sure there are rule sets which would allow a game at this level to be played in an evening, but others will have to recommend which as my taste is for longer games.

For what it is worth, I play NWE in both 20mm and 12mm, and North Africa in 15mm. If you want a low level game (say 30 men plus a few tanks each), NWE is probably a better bet than the desert. Many people play platoon level games set in North Africa, with combined arms patrols fighting over Arab buildings and oases. It looks pretty but that sort of engagement is not very representative of the fighting that occurred in the desert theatre and is not for me.

One word of caution if I may. There are a myriad of WW2 rules sets out there and each of them has supporters on this forum who will tell you their favourite is the best! Welcome back to wargaming and I hope this has been some help.

Oh and don't get discouraged if you can't paint as well as Piers. Few of us can, and I am not one of them.

15mm probably is the best compromise scale, you have the detail big enough to see and the size for larger games.

However, I'd recommend 10/12mm for large battles. It still has enough detail to be happy with, and the difference in size means larger games in the same space. It's better than 15mm for large games and better than 6mm for detail (you can actually see the figures).

Although I do WWII in 10mm, if you are not going to do anything too exotic, then I would say 20mm would be the way to go. I understand the 6mm guys, but like Piers says, with 20mm you have a huge selection, and the price is certainly doable.
My favorite theater is North Africa, especially the early days with all those fun tanks. I have many sets of rules, but I keep coming back to Rapid Fire. They are easy to learn, give a good result, and relatively fast play.

Whatever you choose, welcome back to the fold!

Lots are good, but depends where you are Archi. If you have a local club I strongly recommend joining and that may guide you as each club has their own favourtie rules and scales.

Thanks all, very interesting. I want a game that has a bit of everything; tanks, infantry, artillery, aircraft, engineers, etc, all the stuff. Maybe battalion-sized or more. Bolt Action looks like it'll be a bit small on numbers if its one platoon.

I can see 6mm being interesting and getting a far bigger game, but the models are just too small for my eyes and painting. I'll check out 10mm, but that would by my minimum. Money's not a great problem (I skipped my holiday and put the money aside to start up with two good-sized armies and terrain. I might even get some pre-painted – because mine won't be very good).

20mm looks lovely, but it would be maximum size I think for storage. Mine won't be like Piers', which are little works of art, but I can keep it neat.

I don't need a 'popular' system, because I already have an opponent and that will be fine for the occasional game. Not looking to join a club or anything.

Not heard of Battlegroup or Rapid Fire, so will check reviews of them out. Blitzkrieg Commander is also new to me, and sounds like the kind of scale I'm thinking. Of those three, which would easiest to learn, or most accurate? We won't play often, but I want a good game when we do. Would any be best for the desert?

I would say stick with either 15 or 20mm for company sized games. 6mm really isn't good for infantry, especially if you want a bit of detail on your figures. The other advantage 15 and 20 have over 28mm is that you can get every bit of kit for practically every army whilst 28mm is still an expanding scene, availability wise. Plus you need a huge area to play 28mm company level games.

As for rules.

1. Flames of War is pretty good and don't listen too much to those who hate it. It can get pretty pricey to get involved in so try before you buy.

2. I hear good things about Battlegroup, but like FoW all books are theatre specific so in the end it might still get pricey.

3. Panzergrenadier is alright. It's not as good as some people make out, but it's not horrible or dumb either. I find it a bit bland compared with others on this list but I've had some pretty good games of it as well. Slightly biased in favour of the Germans.

4. I Ain't Been Shot Mum would be my first choice. It's cheaper than a lot of alternatives on this list, campaign books are available as cost effective PDFs, it's well designed and it's fun as well.

5. Avoid Rapid Fire. Seriously. I've played games of it which have ended in 4 turns because if you can see it, you can hit it and when you hit it you destroy it. There's easy to play games and then there's way too easy; alas Rapid Fire falls into the latter category and it gets quite dull.

A few mentions of 1/144 (10/12mm), my favourite as there is a great range of figures and models from the likes of Minifigs, Pendraken, Panzer Depot, Cando, Takara, Pithead etc. Some of the models are just as detailed as 20mm. Can use for any of the popular rule sets such as the skirmish sets from Two Fat Lardies, and Battlegroup through to battalion/ brigade level games such as Blitzkrieg commander and divisional plus games like Spearhead, so you could start with perhaps half a dozen vehicles and 50 or so infantry figures and build up. Painting is easier than 20mm, so doesn't take too long to get a playable force.
I also do 20mm skirmish games and large scale battles in 6mm- gets a bit addictive!

Keeping the price of rules down is why I posted. I don't want to end up buying different sets of rules, learning them, then trying another. I figured I might be able to get it right first time with some advice. Not so simple it seems.

The above advise is great, thanks ubercommando. I can see things are pointing towards 15mm or 20mm. Maybe I'll flip a coin.

Re Comments about Rapid Fire:
To fix the problems you mention, try….
- have loads of scenery to give close cover
-introduce a way of varying turns eg try the Bolt Action Dice or the Fireball Forward card system
-introduce a saving option eg as found in Neil Thomas's Introduction to Wargames WW2 section

No probs

I'll throw in my two cents as well:

Platoon level – Chain of Command with 15mm scale miniatures
Company level – I Ain't Been Shot, Mum!, Fireball Forward, or Crossfire with 15mm scale
Battalion level – Battlefront: WWII with 6mm or 3mm scale
Regiment to Division level – WWII Spearhead with 6mm or 3mm scale

I'd take a good look at Battlefront: WWII. It allows for good sized battles with air support and artillery and (IMHO) is very historically accurate. It is also quick and easy to play. In addition, there are tons of free scenarios on the website available for free:

fireandfury.com

Hope that helps,

Mike

Are you wearing reading glasses yet? when you get there the smaller scales become less appealing.

Battalion level – to add to Delta's list there is "Fistful of Tows" Despite the name it covers WWII to the present and is an excellent set (IMHO).

fft3.com

For battalion level I suggest 15mm and Battlefront. See their web site here for description of game system.
fireandfury.com

1 rulebook for all any arena of WW2. Rulebook covers all the aspects you wanted. The only supplements would be getting the data cards for either Early war, Late war or Desert.

I would go with 6mm micro armor. 20mm for me is just the wrong scale. It's too big for people who don't have the room and too small for those who do have the room. It's the BETA version of the VCR IMO.

I suggest looking here and on EBAY for troops before you go and buy retail. There are times when you can catch someone dumping a collection for next to nothing and all you have to do is buy some bits and bobs and you are ready to go.

Good luck with the project.

If YOU want to use 15 or 20mm, go with that, this is going to be YOUR game, not someone elses… No point in getting a load of 6mm kit and in a years time realise what you wanted all along was 20mm…. Rules? Tricky…the best bet might be to buy a few sets and try them, personally I like battlefront a lot for the size of game you are looking at, but you might hate them…likewise you might like rapid fire….theres no way of knowing until you try a few.

I can see I have a weekend of researching to do. Thanks for the advise, it's named a few games I wasn't aware of and helped me clarify a few things. 15mm will be it I think, as a compromise between size of models and size of battle.

Just rules. I shall make a 'possible' list and see what anybody has to say about them. I can see I might end up with a few.

For Battalion level, if you like 1:1 then WRG 1925-50 is still a pretty good quick game.
Has rules for everything you mentioned.
Because it's simple, it's quick and you can play with scads of stuff.

Archi-- going through rules reviews and battle reports was half the fun of getting into WW II gaming. I have tried many, many sets (had a great time doing it, too!) and have ended up with three excellent ones that do different sized and types of battles. The aforementioned Battlegroup for BIG fights, Fireball Forward company level, and Chain of Command for platoon level. All are excellent!

Many of the others mentioned here are very good as well. It's as Chris says above, read a bunch and you will get a feel for what system does what and you'll know the set that's for you when you see it, I think.

Jerry

I'm surprised no one has mentioned look Sarge No Charts WW2. All you need in one book. It focuses on command decisions and is easy to play.

I'm another who would recommend WWII Battlefront
fireandfury.com
Like you I came back into wargaming after a twenty year gap, I went for 6mm because of storage and space.

15mm will be it I think

Then I would suggest getting the Flames of War starter box. It comes with hods of models and it'd give you a chance to check out the rules and if they don't appeal then you can eBay them and use the figures for a different game.

If you can get to a UK wargame show, you may get some inspiration from the demo games and from a visit to Calivers book stand. Sounds like 10 – 15mm would hit the mark for you.

Scale creep means that the current 10 / 12mm are not too far off the 'old' 15mm, which is a nice scale.

Archi – you can of course choose any scale you prefer, but don't reject 6mm because you are afraid of painting them. Your painting skills are the same whatever the scale of the mini – if you can paint a 0.5mm dot on a 20mm soldier you can paint the same size dot on a 6mm tank. On the soldier it is a button, on the tank it's a hatch, but either way the detail is the same. In fact in my view 6mm are much easier to paint to a wargame standard – green or grey undercoat and a drybrush and vehicles are done. Of course you will always find insanely talented painters at any scale, but for getting troops on the table, 6mm is great.
I love the scale for other reasons – as others have said, the visual effect, the impression of a large battle with sensible ranges, small figures in a large landscape. I can't get used to the idea that three figures, 100 feet high by the ground scale, are a company. For very small scale games – a squad or two a side, effectively skirmishes, then larger figures look fine, but if you want to get companies, battalions and brigades on the table the small scales are the way to go.

6mm doesnt require alot of detailed painting or terrain. I love it.
10mm gives a bit more detail and is still small enough to do battalion sized games on a 5x6 board. It is a bit harder to find the figs you may want though…

15mm, Flames of War.
The first two armies are cheap. It's the next ten you buy that drains the wallet. It's the best rules set to start with. The starter box set is excellent value.
Games can be finished in two or so hours play. The Battlegroup set of rules its a solid second, but I wouldn't recommend it for noobs, too granular in how you order troops around, the various steps you need to take to shoot can put you off.

Don't rule out TooFatLardies' Chain of Command Rules – there are free Big battle rules on their site that let you field more than the original platoon. Chain of Command is such a good game, at least read a few reviews before you reject it.

If you want to recognize your figures as individuals,then 20mm 1/72nd scale works very well. If you just want a mass of tanks,then the 1/144 stuff works fine. 15mm is sort of a compromise scale between the two.

Partly it depends on what you want to play, some sizes don't have much for Italians, or perhaps French. Others might have lots of infantry and odd vehicles.

Visit a local club or convention and sample a game or two. Good way to figure out what you like.

I have 1/72nd scale unpainted plastic figures with painted HO 1/87 scale vehicles and have for 50 years or so. Photos on my blog.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Thanks all again. I have done some further online looking last night and narrowed it down to four rule sets which look like they'll do it for me.

Flames of War
Battlefront WWII
Battlegroup
Chain of Command

I will go with my first instinct on miniatures, 15mm battalion-sized games, and Brits vs German tanks in the desert for a theatre, as I think it'll be far easier on terrain, so I can concentrate on painting the models.

Rules-wise, which suits tanks in the desert best? Which would be easiest to learn and which would have the 'best' historical accuracy? Has anybody played all (or most) of the above?

First welcome back!

I would hope you would give Rapid Fire 2nd edition a good look. I believe it satisfies all the requirements you lay down in your original post. I run games at conventions and even newbies quickly catch on to the rules in just a few turns.

Try visiting their website at rapid-fire.uk.com

One thing you will find is that you only need the basic rules. The additional books contain premade scenarios or order of battle as a convenience. You will note extensive country lists which are updated meaning instead of a separate book on each army or each period you merely download or print out, for free, a new PDF. This really matters when you are talking a budget.

As to criticism at a loss. Of course not everyone will like a particular set of rules. If you see it yes, you have a chance to hit, there is no automatic hits and when you hit you roll for damage. As to dull can tell you my games always full because the rules allow one to concentrate on proper tactics and not get wrapped up in an accounting exam.

And yes, proper terrain is a must no matter what set of rules you use. The vast majority of engagements in northwest Europe were at 500 yards or less for armor engagements for example.

If you want a strong tank orientation, certainly 6mm or smaller. I like being able to see the infantry and cavalry; 10mm gives you recognizable uniforms while letting you have decently small vehicles for large tank formations.

I would visit a show before you make your first purchase. You can see the various sizes in the metal/plastic. Pick them up and see which grabs your fancy!

Same with rules. There are always a good selection for sale, sometimes cheap second hand. You can have a flick through and get more of an idea of how they work. There may be a participation game using rules you are interested in that you can have a go at.

Where in the UK are you? There are lots of shows coming up…..

Why is it on TMP, that a thread like this comes along, asking for advice, with a caveat like "I'm going to do it in 15mm" and several people immediately tell him to do 6mm….HE WANTS TO DO IT IN 15mm.

Don't be put off by the large number of Bolt Action books available. The main rules book gives you everything you need. The others are just candy for enthusiasts.

Archi,

Archi, to actually answer your last question – I ave played three of the four you mention. Battlefront WWII is quite complicated to learn, quite "rules heavy", though the cards are a nice physical asset. Chain of Command is simple once you have learned it, but it's not very intuitive – having to learn what the various different numbers on the dice mean. More to the point I don't think it is suitable for battalion sized tank battles in the desert – a couple of platoons in Normany terrain is its sweet spot. I don't know Battlegroup, so of the ones you mention I guess FoW is the best choice. It is designed to be fairly easy to pick up for the 40K crowd, and the rules are fine, especially if you avoid all the chrome, don't choose Sgt Nick Knickerbocker and his personal special rule. Like most of the people here I would have a different answer to the challenge of fighting tanks in the desert – and all our answers would be different. So try FoW – the other benefit is that YouTube is full of "how to" videos, including from FoW themselves, and there are hundreds of blogs and other sites.

Back to Archi's point on rules for tank battles in North Africa. There's a clear winner if that's the theatre you're opting for: Flames of War.

Now overall I don't think it's the best rules available but it's great for those tank battles across wide expanses and it does combined arms with infantry, artillery and air support well. So 15mm, North Africa, emphasis on armour, I'd opt for FoW…I'd still rate I Ain't Been Shot Mum as a good bargain and I'm still not sold on Rapid Fire.

I don't consider FOW to be a big battle set either.

Flames of War works quite well at a battalion per side (well, 2 full or 3 short infantry companies and the battalion weapons platoons). Works better than just a company per side with divisional support, actually!

Battlegroup rules will also work for up to a battalion per side, but I wouldn't want to run much more than a company per side because the basic unit you're pushing around is a squad.

Either 15mm or 20mm will give you a wide range of minis, so it's really more a matter of the terrain (well, that and which size minis you prefer). 15mm terrain takes up less space than 20mm terrain.

I started into Flames of War back during the first edition of the rules, and decided to keep as much of my gaming in 15mm as possible. Moderns, Napoleonics, WW2, you name it, all in 15mm. I have very few 28mm minis left, and they're almost all for Infinity (scifi skirmish game that is my absolute favorite).

But Christot, we are told that "20mm is the only scale we can use"(a fact I suppose?) for WW2! Nothing else is close (crickey). I will still carry on with 15mm, but be pilloried for my non- adherence? I might ask next what is the car everyone should buy? Perhaps there is a correct genre of music too?

martin

20mm is the only scale fpr WW2? Really? That statement is truly bizarre for WW2 gamers in the 21st century. 20mm perhaps in the 70's. Not any more.