"Do recon vehicles even belong in a large scale game?" Topic

For skirmish scenarios fine. They can be the whole point of the scenario.
But what about company sized games and larger? Haven't they done their job and fallen aside by the time the main battle begins?
They've located the enemy's position right? Why run them into open combat and get them destroyed?
I recall a post awhile ago about how we gamers probably don't use them right, and that sentiment was repeated to me the other day.
Unless you're playing 3mm or 6mm with hidden movement, should they even be on the table in a large game?

They can be extremely useful in operational level games.

I think you can easily find occasions for having reconnaissance elements on the table with main force elements if you look around enough. E.g. if you look at the make up of various US task groups or German kampfgruppe operating somewhat independently such as during Operation Cobra, you'll often find a small reconnaissance element attached to these formations. The trick with having these recon assets pass the eye test is to have them properly deployed as part of the scenario set up. They should be out in front of the main force such that they will simply get creamed if they go roaring in but can be very useful if deployed to probe and reveal the enemy ahead of the main force. This is really vital in games with any useful hidden deployment like IABSM. Another common way recon and main force mixed were the situations where reconnaissance had secured a forward position and had to hold that until the arrival of main force elements. This sort of action was particularly common for German mobile forces because of their recon doctrine. Another consideration is that not all recon elements in a TOE are the division recon that would be roaming out ahead of the entire formation, often in company strength. Many smaller formations had their own organic recon assets for local scouting and these would definitely more often appear with main force elements in a company scale game.

At game scales above company, you should more frequently have recon represented on table with main force units, where again scenario set up makes the difference between those forces passing the eye test and acting like recon versus light, expendable combat elements.

Dec. 25, 1944, 2nd Recon Battalion of the 2nd Armored Division attacked and effectively destroyed the Recon Battalion of 2nd SS Pz at Foy-Notre-Dame in Belgium.

Donald Houston, Hell on Wheels, p.344.

Kind of hard to play that scenario without any recon vehicles on the table…

They're vital in Spearhead for recon and flank security.

Regardless, even if there is no need for their scouting/recon abilities, they are good for screening, flank protection, etc. …

There are some quite elegant rules which allow a role for recce in table games, I think its CD which allows increased spotting capability for units in base to base contact with a recce platoon.
Battlefront allows a similar mechanic.
Recce units don't have be rushing around getting shot at to be effective, it just takes some cleverer rule writing.

Even Rapid Fire has better spotting range and chance for Recce units.

Jesus.. Really? So there is one rule in that set that actually makes sense? Never knew that.

The cute thing about the CD rule is the base to base bit, which I suspect rapid fire lacks.

If a no longer local guy had not been using his Tiger tanks in a recon role, my tank destroyers would not have blown his ass away.

great feedback! i like recon on the board, but it always seems to get used for cannon fodder. i'm gonna have to try a "seize the objective and hold" scenario like BCantwell mentioned.
increasing the spotting chances of adjacent units sounds interesting. i wonder how long they'll live doing that?!

In CD they never get even targeted if used properly, tank sits on edge of wood, recce unit sits behind tank in contact with it, tank gains spotting benefit, recce unit is invisible deep within the wood.

If you play using a rule set that includes hidden setup options you soon realise why you need recon.

"Dec. 25, 1944, 2nd Recon Battalion of the 2nd Armored Division attacked and effectively destroyed the Recon Battalion of 2nd SS Pz at Foy-Notre-Dame in Belgium.

Donald Houston, Hell on Wheels, p.344."

The tiny matter of three British Armoured Regiments and a Motor Battalion belonging to 29th Armoured Brigade might also have had a hand in their destruction…

;)

Recon units on table in Flames of War are critical to keep those 'teleporting' Tank Destroyers from showing up at real inopportune spots.

Recon units in Battlegroup rules help decide who goes first, in addition to being about your only way to call for mortar support.

I was also under the impression that German and Russian recon was intended to fight through any enemies contacted.

A lot depends on how the game system works. Personally I like having the figures on the table simply because they are fun; Blitzkrieg Commander gives you some command bonuses for using them well which works for me.

But what about company sized games and larger? Haven't they done their job and fallen aside by the time the main battle begins?

A company-sized attack would seldom count as "the main battle."

I like them in Chain of Command rules. Use the recon vehicles during the patrol phase. Looks nicer than chips or such.

I used to use motorcycles as a recon element with my immediate-prewar Soviets using WRG back in the day. Send them out, they don't come back, that's where the bad guys probably are.

Duck

great feedback! i like recon on the board, but it always seems to get used for cannon fodder.

That's why I prefer rules that have rules that allow recon units to be used as recon units. FoW does this, as does Blitzkrieg Commander. Probably others, too, but these two come immediately to mind.

We are curreently using recon forces in a large game. It should be rememberd that in a big game with lots of time the recon will probe well forward. There job is to watch the roads. If you see a big fleet of trucks you know that they are supplying a company, if its just a jeep is propably only a section. Recons job is watching roads and seeing what passes. This was the main job of the LRDG not ferrying SAS. There is the school of thought subscribed to by a friends dad in an armour car company. You drive through a village and if they fire at you they are in there and if they don't they are either good troops or not there. Even now the debate rages between reconissance by force of by steath. You use your expensive well trained troops for ther latter and disposable heros for the former. As the Forward edge of battle is some miles ahead you need a big board for recon to work in. Our current battle is aloing a linked set of roads total distanbce 12 km. Recon is vital to find out where the enemy is along that road.

For years most WW2 rule sets treated recon units as easily destroyed vehicles of dubious value. They gained no special abilities for being a recon unit other than they were cheap and expendable. Fortunately, more modern rule sets have given them bonuses in spotting and detecting ambushes.

Another use for recon units is using their fast speed to get around the flanks or dash to an objective whilst the heavier units follow up. Once you've exploited a gap in the enemy line with them, you're forcing your opponent to either ignore them whilst they concentrate on your more powerful units or else detail a unit to deal with the recon which might weaken them in another area.

Flames of War does recon units really well; even ardent FoW haters grudgingly admit it.

Another value is as a use for prone and kneeling figures. I like my infantry units to all be standing/advancing.

Recon troops look more natural sneaking around (prone/kneeling).

Flames of War does recon units really well …

In what way? (I've never played FoW.)

I recommend reading the US War Department Field Manual FM 2-20 Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop Mechanized 02/24/1944. For employment doctrine.

FM 2 – 20

As well as the After Action Report, 38th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron (Mechanized), Aug 44 thru April 45. For actual face of the enemy use.

38th Cav Recon AAR

Sept 5th is interesting.

On the 5th, "B" Troop determined that the roadblock on the road to their front had been abandoned. The Troop reconnoitered toward the infantry. As "B" Troop deployed to attack further, it became apparent that the force of German infantry troops. was supported, by at least 4 tanks and some self-propelled guns. Troop "C" deployed dismounted with two platoons abreast, to the right of Troop "B" and closed on the town from the south.

Approximately 300 Germans, forced from the town by Troop "E" bombardment, broke from the eastern edge of the town, coming into full view of the supporting elements of the attacking troops at a range of about 2500 yards. Intense artillery and 50 caliber machine gun fire was brought to bear on these enemy troops causing a complete rout and inflicting innumerable casualties.

Following this debacle, the enemy was reinforced by SS troops, accompanied by 4 tanks and self-propelled artillery, to defend the town actively and thus cover the retreat of the others. The tank fire delivered by this covering force inflicted some casualties. The enemy action was halted through the efforts of Captain Rice commanding Troop "E" who, by personally observing and directing the fire of his assault guns, forced the enemy tanks to withdraw. Tanks of Company "F" were brought up at this time and together with elements of Troops "B" and "C', they broke up the counter-attack and a tank patrol broke into the town itself, finding it clear. Simultaneously, Troop "A", whose attack from the north had been suspended during the artillery bombardment of the town, was ordered to close on the objective. The town, which had been set on fire by the Germans before their retreat, was secured and the Command Post brought forward.

That to me sounds like a company action.

Incidentaly the AAR uses a six digit grid ref can anyone tell me where I can find correspondingly marked maps?

You could always have a mini pre-game to decide who has successfully reconnoitered the battlefield and starts the main event with concealment.

As targets?

Just saying…..

Eric

My post was about VEHICLES, and excluded hidden movement, but thanx anyway.

Flames of War allows Recon units to detect ambushes, negate the bonus for concealed infantry and when the enemy opens fire on them, they get a chance to disengage and make a retreat move. So they're eyes, ears and not stupidly suicidal.

@VCarter: I like the idea, and it would help make the Recon troopers more immediately obvious.

Right now, though, my recon consists of 3 M8 Armored Cars and 6 jeeps in WW2, Weird War 2 gets DP9 M11 Walkers modded to hold the M8 open turret with the same jeeps. I do have dismounted crew for them, I just need to get brave enough to do the camo for them.

Well, I do have a pair of QRF "Loaches" and one in process of getting turned into an objective for Vietnam.

I need to get some Russian vehicle crew for my Spetsnaz platoon, since I have 3 'spare' Schwimmwagens. I should probably chase down some Ford GPAs as well.