"What if the shoe were on the other foot." Topic

Interesting that no one, for a purely hypothetical what-If, assumes a war of the combined North and South against Europe. Start at Portugal and let the combined Union and Confederate Armies backed by the industrial might of the north, attempt the complete subjugation of the European land mass up to the Urals.

What the heck, they could march all the way to China if they wanted.

What would be a hoot, and something you could do, is just for fun, almost like a fantasy football team, make up the command structure for such a force. Who's the CIC, who's the commander of the various army groups, Inspector general, Quartermaster general. etc.

Assume of course that the wildly clashing personalities could somehow be convinced or bludgeoned into working together.

My first question when something like this comes up is "Why would they do that?" This sets up any allies they may have. I think you would need allies. And motivation too, for that matter.

That aside, I think they would fare as badly as Europeans attempting to conquer America.

Industrial power of the North? How would that apply if the Royal Navy is opposing it? And this is not WW2, with ships full of tanks. All the industrial power of the North has to supply is rifles and cannon. Not much use for trains and rails to be transported to Portugal at the expense of food.

Dear John

Yes John you see the problem.

Damn! You failed to step on the land-mine.

Otto

Why pick on pool old Portugal? Take out the French first (thus saving all that trouble in Mexico) and barrel on east!

Dear John the Greater

Oh just for the line up. from Portugal to China. arrange them however you want, I was using it as a figure of speech.

I had thought in terms of that. If you created a Five Corps army made from the best units of both sides plus using the best generals from both sides to command it, how would it do verses the French or English armies of the day. My feeling is that it would tear through European Armies.

…until they get to Prussia, who have the needle rifles.

Terrement, that sounds really cool and always makes for a fun skirmish game on my table!

And motivation too, for that matter.

Considering that both sides had to resort to a draft to preserve their existence, I don't see much hope in assembling a force for foreign adventure.

That is an interesting idea Terrement, but perhaps it could be that the North and South stalemate the war, send home their militias and volunteers and keep smaller permanent armies staring nervously across the Potomac and the Mississippi ; without American assistance and international pressure the Juaristas fail and France gains control; and then they move against Texas and New Orleans, bringing Washington and Richmond into a united military effort.

And in their weakened state, America is threatened to be partitioned, the USA to England, the CSA to France, and the far west to Spain. But Prussia and Russia would probably object to stronger West European powers. And former blockade runners could drop off and pick up combined North-South raiding parties along the French and English coasts and refuel in the Netherlands. I don't really see the possibility of large land battles in Europe (outside of an early FPW), but smaller actions and skirmishes are definite.

The US could invade Ireland, after some type of political standoff with Britain.

or a Pacific War-island hopping over every ones' colonies and coaling stations.

For VSF Nemo could work for the US Navy.

But what really would work if all the Great Game players fought over a Lost-and -Found continent.

I think RebelYel2006 has the more plausible scenario. It would be a good excuse to collect the Perry Britain Intervention Force.

link

Never happen, at least not till AFTER the US government decided if the conquered territory would be slave or free…

US could not do it
French Population 36 million
Spanish 16 Million
UK 29 Million
Germany 37 Million
Low Countries another 10 Million

US combined at 31 Million

While the North was industrializing, it was still small potatoes to the UK. The US population had a lot of room to expand against lightly populated plains rather than trying to subjugate the Old Countries.
I really fail to see much point in the Europeans intervening in the ACW, and little to be gained for the US outside of North America for the next 40 years

This scenario overlooks the fact that America BECAME the great industrial power of the 20th Century BECAUSE it didn't waste its resources on military spending during the later part of the 19th Century. Once the Civil War was over the army and navy were reduced to nearly their microscopic pre-war size and America's resources were devoted to internal improvement and growth. And grow it did! That wouldn't have happened if the Americans got involved in pointless foreign wars.

The Americans could have used great airships to send troops to Europe. The American plan to build airships code name "The SoHo Project" was finally tested in the desert of the Arizona Territory. With their improved Gatling guns nothing could withstand the Americans. World Manifest Destiny! Americans were destined to rule the world!

Yes. If Britain had stayed out of WW1 and 2 we would have retained the Empire. We could have sold stuff to the Nazis, like American businesses did.

Wasn't that one of the plot points in The King in Yellow?

Like the Last Hussar said, or we could just BE Nazis like that Edward VIII guy…

I'm always interested in counterfactual history or game premises, but this one seems too illogical and unfeasible, for reasons noted above by a few other thoughtful commentators.

Why the US would make the effort to invade (!!!???) Europe in, what, the 1860s?, which would be quite a vast undertaking given US resources at the time, is questionable at best. The US still had a continent to subdue at home! Not to mention a third attempt to conquer Canada is far more attractive, and easier to mount. So --

I would rather postulate a war between the US and an Anglo-French alliance in the later 1860s, centered on an ill-conceived US intervention in Mexico and then Canada, bringing the British and Napoleon III (c/o Emperor Maximillian) into hostilities. I can see expeditionary forces of French and British regulars, with native allies, matched against American forces more easily in the New World than the old. Add Indian auxilliaries to taste. Great sport!

Harry Harrison (Stainless Steel Rat) channeled Turtledove and wrote a trilogy called "Stars and Stripes" that starts out with a fairly plausible reason for the US and CS to join forces against Great Britain before it descends into steampunk light.

The premise is that Gladstone and co. were unable to mollify Queen Victoria over the Trent Affair and a punitive expedition was sent to punish the upstart Yanks. The British unit attacked and sacked a Confederate fortification by mistake.

The stories have the recombined US sending a force to Mexico in the second book to halt the French (and British). Russia is a tacit ally.

It is the Americans' use of post-Napoleonic tactics, trains and the "wonder weapons" of the gatling gun and ironclad which give them the tactical advantage.

In the third book, Lincoln takes advantage of the unrest in Ireland to stage an invasion there with Eire serving as a launch pad for a raid on London to depose Queen Victoria. At this point, Harrison has had John Ericsson (developer of USS Monitor) inventing/perfecting the internal combustion engine and horseless carriages armed with gatling guns to see off the British land forces. They are delivered by the ACW equivalent of RO/RO ships after the Thames defenses are neutralized by ironclad mortar ships.

Historians would have fits, but it does offer some historical and VSF gaming options.

Wyatt

"Historians would have fits"

No wonder! It is a plot so far-fetched that defies credibility. I love counterfactuals, but only when they stay in the realm of what was possible.

Interesting that at least two posters make the assumption that the UK would already have dissolved into England and Scotland by the 1860s.

I believe industrialisation would already be the key factor by the 1860s.

This is the era when British industrial production was way ahead of anywhere else. Coal, iron and steel, shipbuilding, engineering, everything needed for modern warfare, Britain was out-producing everyone by quite a margin. Similar to the USA in the 1940s.

Of course, if you move the US v Europe scenario forward by about 30 years it starts to look different. But then you have to factor in a united Germany with it's rising industrial power. This sounds a bit too familiar though!

The perennial problem with US forces in 19th c. 'What-if' games:

Everybody wants an ACW-style, ACW-size army…

Nobody wants the scenario-breaking inconvenience of a civil war.

Remember, Russia would be on the US side.