"Separatist confirms Russians fighting in Ukraine" Topic

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Alexander Zakharchenko, prime minister of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic, has told Russian TV that Russian citizens were coming to Ukraine to fight because they felt it was their duty.

"There have been around 3,000-4,000 of them in our ranks," he said, adding that the rebels' struggle would have been much harder without them. He said many of the Russians were former service people or current personnel on leave.

"Many former high-ranking military officers have volunteered to join us. They are fighting with us, considering that to be their duty," he said. "There are also many in the current Russian military that prefer to spend their leave among us, brothers who are fighting for their freedom, rather than on a beach."

Is it normally legal for members of a nation's armed forces to go fight in private wars during their time off? What would the situation be if, for example, British or US service personnel were found fighting (other than at the direction of their country) while on leave?

Given that Russia has denied that there are any Russian armed forces involved, should they not now be directing that all active Russian servicemen fighting within Ukraine (on leave or otherwise) should immediately cease and return to Russia?

This comes from the back of a report by the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) in London, which has analysed video footage of a separatist convoy, flying the DPR flag. Within this convoy is this vehicle:

The convoy itself contains 3 T-72B1, nothing unusual there as Ukraine does possess these vehicles and they could have been captured from overrun bases, but this single vehicle in Kontakt-5 ERA (variably designated T-72BM and T-72BV) is apparently not possessed by Ukraine.

These vehicles, which also appear to be designated T-72B3, were deployed by Russia along the Russian-Ukrainian border some months back: link

Perhaps separatists have been sneaking over the border and stealing them? Pretty careless (not to mention embarrassing) to allow unknown militant groups from different nationalities to make off with your armed forces tanks…?

And a report today suggests that Ukraine has caught yet another Russian soldier fighting within Ukraine. This is a separate incident from the group of paras caught on Monday – presumably he was also lost…

Russia in sending troops and equipment into Ukraine shocker….

I was shocked. I hadn't seen that coming at all. :-)

Not even when Girkin thanked Russia for the body armour on social media…

Apparently this video was up for a while, then mysteriously disappeared from Youtube on or before Aug. 8, but not before someone managed to grab at least one screenshot…

Russian armored vehicles (near the border) bearing the insignia "MC," an abbreviation of the Russian words mirotvorcheskiye sily or "peacekeeping force." The insignia on the vehicles are similar to markings used by the Russians engaged in "peacekeeping operations" in Transnistria, a pro-Russian breakaway region between Moldova and the Ukraine.

A member of Russian President Vladimir Putin's advisory council on human rights, Ella Polyakova, says she believes Russia is carrying out an invasion of Ukraine.

"When masses of people, under commanders' orders, on tanks and troop carriers, and with the use of heavy weapons, [are] on the territory of another country and cross the border, I consider this an invasion," Ms Polyakova told Reuters.

Dissent amongst the ranks?

Dissent amongst the ranks?

Or about to be "retired"?

<What would the situation be if, for example, British or US service personnel were found fighting (other than at the direction of their country) while on leave?>

I would think it would be something like Eagle Squadron in the RAF. The US couldn't publicly approve of it, but it wasn't aggressively trying to stop it either. I don't recall that Eagle Squadron had US service members on leave, so it's not the same situation but I doubt Russia feels all that bad about the volunteers headed to the Ukraine.

Reports that Russian troops are intervening directly in the fighting in south-east Ukraine have started to appear in Russian media, despite repeated denials from the Kremlin.

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This shouldn't be surprising.

Russuan Media (mostly state controlled) has for months been lionizing the rebels and publishing inflamatory and exagerated stories of Ukranian "Atrocities" and encouraging russians to go to Ukraine to fight.

Of course russia doesn't feel bad about the volunteers. It's encouraging, equipping and sending them.

But it seems they are not only keeping it a secret from the people outside. They are also trying to keep it a secret from their own people:

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Or perhaps we are looking at this all wrong, and it is only their own people they are trying to keep it a secret from?

The head of the Russian Union of Committees of Soldiers' Mothers, Valentina Melnikova, tells the Russian RBK business newspaper that 250 conscripts from the Ryazan commando division have been forced to sign contracts for the purpose of sending them to Ukraine next week.

Well, if they weren't there before, officially, it looks like they soon will be…

Ah… those Canadians :-)

The Canadian map is good

I thought you could get those tanks on Amazon, with a next day guaranteed delivery! Now the worst kept secret is out what's anyone going to do about it? More importantly, how will ISIL react now they are not the No1 news agenda?

Now the worst kept secret is out what's anyone going to do about it?

Nothing

A strongly worded condemnation will be proposed at the UN Security Consul meeting and will be promptly overridden by Russia or China.

They seriously need to reconsider this single country veto.

Russia's ambassador to the EU, Vladimir Chizhov, has told the BBC there are only 10 Russian soldiers in Ukraine – the ones who "wandered into Ukrainian territory by mistake".

Wandered 30 miles in… that's a full days hard walking. Probably two days.

And presumably that's the only 10.

Except for the other 2 they just caught…

I hope Russia never needs to intentionally invade anywhere. They could turn up anywhere in the world 'by accident'

Hem! Seems I have no opinion as does Unlucky Gen

I assumed it was you deleted it

They could be Russian ex-members of the FFL.

All sorts turned up in Bosnia Brits,German,US,Russians including that Strelok character to name a few so why should Ukraine be any different.

Its not the question of who is turning up, so much as the way they are turning up, across the unsecured border with Russia while Russia turns a blind eye.

If Russia had helped secure the border, then this would already have been sorted and Donetsk and Lughansk would be discussing increased autonomy for their own administration.

Do they have many drive-thru fast food establishments in the Ukraine?

Seems to me that might make sense, especially if they are Taco Bell venues, since their old slogan was "…make a run for the border…".

Of course, reaching the drive-thru window easily might be difficult, from the turret hatch of a T-80 tank.

Do they have many drive-thru fast food establishments in the Ukraine?

Not many, and the quality of the food in McDonalds was much better in Ukraine than it is here is the UK ;-)

For those in any doubt about the severity of aggression being inflicted on civilians by foreign 'separatists' in Ukraine: link

A pro-Ukrainian activist accused of spying for the Ukrainian army in Donetsk has endured hours of public humiliation orchestrated by the armed rebels in the centre of the eastern city.

BBC report today reports her release thankfully.

An "immediate ceasefire" in Ukraine must be the priority for key negotiations taking place on Monday, Russia's foreign minister has said.

Ukrainian troops "must leave positions from which they can harm the civilian population", Sergei Lavrov said.

Problem with that is that it will be merely seen as a method for separatists (or Russians) to retake/seize/consolidate within the cities. It only works if the separatists will also leave positions from which they can harm the civilian population.

"Ukrainian military spokesman Leonid Matyukhin said troops were battling a Russian tank division in the city of Luhansk."

How big is a division?

Problem is that there is a fundamental lack of meeting of minds.

Ukraine and most of the west see the current situation as being fuelled by Russia. If Russia had simply closed the border and not permitted foreign (to Ukraine) nationals to cross at will then the situation would never have reached this level and would have been resolved by now. Whether or not Russia is 'directly' behind the activity, it has certainly not helped the situation by failing to help prevent it.

Russia seems to see it on three fronts.

Firstly an [unfounded] fear of neo nazi movements taking control and trying to ethnically cleanse eastern Ukraine of anyone they consider impure. THere is a lot of paranoia about this, but it has been mainly funded by Russian state media rather than any actual cases.

Secondly a fear that this is a NATO attempt to place missiles on Russia's border. Given that (a) NATO has had missles on the border for rather a long time, (b) missiles are capable to reaching Russia from the other side of the world and (c) I'm not sure NATO really considered Russia as a threat anyway, until this recent incident.

And lastly, Russia blames the whole situation on the Ukrainian government for seemingly having the audacity to try and prevent foreign fighters from taking up arms within Ukraine (conveniently ignoring the fact that some 3-4000, and possibly up to 10k, are current or ex Russian military servicemen, according to the separatist leader) – again, if Russia had not permitted these men to cross the border (along with Serbs, Chechens, etc) then this situation would probably have never arisen in the first place.

While the situation in Donetsk and Lugansk may be less clear, the images of Ukrainians forming a huiman chain around Mariupol make it very clear that they do NOT want to be part of a separatist state, and as such any separtist attack on Mariupol would be contrary to the wishes of the people – I hope Russia will also be taking that into account in their support for 'what the people want'

Separatists have apparently posted a list (on Ria Novosti Twitter) of what they want, ahead of discussions aimed towards a ceasefire:

> A halt to Kyiv's special operations, to enable regional elections on the principle of self-management (in other words, a ceasefire, which is only likely to work if separatists also agree to lay down arms and stop fighting, and not merely use the opportunity to seize ground)

> Amnesty to political prisoners, militia, policitians, deputies, cabinet members of republics (not sure who they are referring to specifically, possibly the self-appointed members of the DPR/LPR and anyone fighting on their side)

> A guarantee for a special order in foreign economic activity if they integrate with the Russian customs union (not sure about the use of the word 'if' in there. If Ukraine does not integrate (and it doesn't look likely to) where does that leave them? They may be seeking a right to work economically with Russia, which might give Ukraine the best of both worlds, if they can work out how to also deal with the EU)

> A right to officially use Russian in their territories (that right was only installed late last year (it hadn't been an 'official' language for nearly 20 years) and removed as a side product of a reversion of the constitutional changes made by Yanukovich, rather than a deliberate slight against Russian speakers. That said, there are a sizeable proportion of people, especially the older generation who were brought up under Soviet times and only know Russian, so it does make sense to have both languages available – my wife speaks both)

> In return they vow to "keep Ukraines united space" (Interesting to see if that is also in Russia's plan…)

The latest situation, according to Ukraine:

There are reports that the separatists, actively supported by mianstream Russian forces, are trying to widen their area of control before establishing a ceasefire.

Ukrainian journalist Roman Bochkala reports that some Ukrainian troops have been taken prisoner during the fighting at Luhansk airport. He reports that "regular troops from Russia" took part in the fighting, including "paratroopers and marines."

Ukrainian UNIAN news agency reports that as many as 680 Ukrainian servicemen have been captured in the Donetsk region after recent fighting, 80% of them in the area near Ilovaysk.

Russian media report that the separatists' representatives at talks in Minsk have said they would accept staying within Ukraine if "special status" were given to their self-proclaimed republics.

If confirmed, this would be a shift from their previous insistence on independence for the regions.

Some form of 'special status' has been on offer since the very start of this, so that is an interesting shift. However it has always been conditional on 'you put your guns down and we will talk about it'.

Got to love the media…

Russia's apparent growing involvement in the crisis in Ukraine is set to dominate discussions at the summit

Illustrated with this photo of a Ukrainian SPG…

This one might have been better?

In the latest twist, Panorama claims to have three separate eye witnesses confirmed both the presence of a BUK missile launcher at the time of the MH17 shooting, but also that they were Russian soldiers:

Three eyewitnesses, all civilians, separately told Panorama that they saw a missile-launcher in rebel-held territory a few hours before the Boeing jet was hit.

One eyewitness saw the missile-launcher roll off a low-loader at Snezhnoye, around ten miles from the crash site, at around 13:30 local time (10:30 GMT). "We just saw it being offloaded and when the BUK started its engine the exhaust smoke filled the whole town square," he said. The eyewitness told the BBC that the crew struck him as Russian soldiers: "Well-disciplined, unlike the rebels, and not wearing the standard Ukrainian camouflage uniform sported by government and rebel troops alike"

"They had pure Russian accents. They say the letter 'g' differently to us," he said. In eastern Ukraine, most people speak Russian but the BUK crew did not speak Russian with a local accent.

His testimony was confirmed by a second eyewitness, who added that an officer in a military jeep escorting the BUK spoke with a Muscovite accent.

If correct, the Kremlin has a little explaining to do, why Russian military personnel were allegedly seen in the area escorting a BUK shortly before MH17 was shot down.

The Kremlin's denial of military support to the rebels is countered by "a mass of evidence", including a video of a mechanised battalion column of Russian tanks and military hardware shot from the back of a bus in Ukraine… (still looking for this video)