"panzer iv side skirts missing" Topic

I'm struck by how many pictures of panzer ivs in Normandy show vehicles with side skirts missing where the skirts are still present on the turrets. I've done some searching trying to find an explanation for this but with no success. Any thoughts?

- Certainly there are pics of pz ivs with skirts on both the turret and the sides.
- Many of the pics with missing side skirts are of wrecks, so I wonder if they are just scavenged quickly?
- But of those, many don't show the mounting rails either (there are some pics of tanks with mounting rails but no skirts).

They fell off in running through narrow lanes.

Maybe after fixing the track a few times the damn things were in the way and left off.

The side skirts were more vulnerable to damage than the turret skirts so pictures of tanks with turret, but no side skirts are not uncommon.

If you think about it, the side plates extend beyond the side of the vehicle, so are vulnerable to getting stripped off in collisions with fixed objects. The turret skirts don't extend beyond the width of the basic vehicle, so any such collisions will impact the fenders/running gear long before the turret skirts. I think the side skirts were just hung on the frame, without any sort of welding, so they are already "quick-release."

But I have to admit Ogdenlulimus has a compelling argument.

The side skirts IIRC were suspended on a framework using triangular "teeth" that fit through the loop on the skirt armor. This was done so that if the armor plate was snagged on something, it would slip off rather than damage the frame that supported it. In heavy combat these skirts could either be damaged or loss while maneuvering.

Damon.

Their whole purpose was to pre-detonate shaped charges, so they could be cheap sheet metal.
Lose it? Get another one.

The most common pics I've seen were PZIV"s with side schurtzen missing in sections on each side, but not entirely on one side or the other. Like this FOW model:

They also weren't cheap sheet metal. I believe they were 1/4" or 1/2" or so of armor plate.

And….

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ again.

The skirts were made of mild steel – 5mm thick on the hull and 8mm on the turret. They were designed to defeat the powerful Russian anti-tank rifles by decapping/deforming the projectiles or by causing them to yaw and hit the armour sideways. Very effective they were too. The fact that they were equally effective at detonating HEAT rounds was pure serendipity.

cheers

Jentz quotes Guderian's report to Hitler 28/6/44:
"Mountings for the schuerzen on the panzers must be strengthened because of the hedgerows in Normandy".

It would appear they simply got ripped off regurlarly when traversing obstacles,

Thanks. I agree they were fragile and prone to being torn off, but that doesn't really explain the pics where not only are the side skirts missing but also the mounting brackets, which I assume were sturdier?

The turret skirts were bolted to their brackets (which were welded to the turret). These skirts did not extend beyond the fender line of the hull, and because they were up high only rarely got tangled up in obstacles. If turret skirts are missing it's usually because of battle damage.

The hull skirts on Pz4 had U-shaped attachments (similar to hand holds) on the inside surface and were hung rather loosely from the upper mounting rail (on triangular teeth) and from an L-shaped hook on the lower center brackets. This meant that the skirts could be unhooked and knocked off without damaging the mounting brackets/rails, which were welded to the hull sides. Contrast this with the earlier mounting system on Pz3 – L-shaped hooks which attached through holes in the skirts. When these skirt plates caught on some obstacle they tended to damage or tear off the mounting brackets. A lot of extra work for the fitters to repair.

When you see pics of Pz4 with missing/damaged mounting brackets it is usually because of battle damage. The fitters either did not have the time to repair it, or did not have available materials/parts. The skirts themselves are easy to lose in close country and are not always recovered/replaced. I have seen pics of Panther skirt plates that were fabricated from the same diamond plate material that was used for floor plates. You make repairs with what you have on hand.

There is also the issue of not having the hull mounting brackets installed at all. Usually this is seen during the initial fielding phase when not enough kits were available to fit every vehicle, or very late war when material shortages could affect availability.

Hope this helps.

If I recall correctly, Finnish military ended up removing side skirts from the StuGs received from Germans, since those tended to be a hindrance when manoeuvring in forests.

OK, so it sounds like if in a pic there are no rails for the side skirts, that particular vehicle never got them and probably due to shortages. I guess I can buy that.

It's also possible they removed them, finding them inconvenient in tight spaces. And if the plates fall off anyway, maybe get rid of the rails?

It's also possible they removed them, finding them inconvenient in tight spaces. And if the plates fall off anyway, maybe get rid of the rails?

Nonsensical.

99% of the places a tank operates in are not "tight". Finns in forests excepted. The flank armour of a Pz4 is pretty anemic at only 30mm. The skirts provide much needed extra protection against close range (tight terrain) infantry threats ie AT rifles and SC weapons. One of the few reasons that I can think of for removing serviceable skirts is to fit ostketten, which usually results in removing the brackets as well so that they can be reinstalled when the normal tracks are fitted.

OK, so it sounds like if in a pic there are no rails for the side skirts, that particular vehicle never got them and probably due to shortages. I guess I can buy that.

It sounds like you're trying to win an argument on another site. Why not just post the pic in question here? There are always exceptions to established procedures.

Ha! That would be funny. But no. I'm just trying to understand the data.

Here is a wreck with shurzen rails but no shurzen:

Here is a wreck where the crew has used spare tracks in place of skirts, I guess:

Here are two wrecks, the one farther away doesn't seem to have any rails, the one closer does (and one skirt piece still hanging on):

Just as a few examples.

In those photos, perhaps the other PzIVs in their formation stripped the wrecks of their shurzen plates to replace the ones that fell off their own tanks.

Although the one with the treads wrapped around the hull suggests that particular tank had been without its side skirts for a time anyway. And in that last photo the PzIV ahead doesn't have the hull mounting brackets.

99% of the places a tank operates in are not "tight".

But some are. Note christot's post:

Jentz quotes Guderian's report to Hitler 28/6/44:
"Mountings for the schuerzen on the panzers must be strengthened because of the hedgerows in Normandy".

But then, what would Heinz Guderian know?

The flank armour of a Pz4 is pretty anemic at only 30mm. The skirts provide much needed extra protection against close range (tight terrain) infantry threats ie AT rifles and SC weapons.

Yes, very good, you understand why they existed in the first place. However, the question is why there are so many pictures of Pz IV with turret schurzen but none on the hull. There are good arguments they got torn off maneuvering in areas more congested than a parking lot, which happens a lot more than you seem to think it does. Certainly Herr Guderian seems to think it was possible.

While that explanation is good, it does not offer any explanation of Pz IVs that have turret armor but not even a mounting bracket for the hull plates. The only possible reasons are they were never installed, got torn off in combat or accidents, or were purposely removed for some reason. You, for some reason, call this "nonsense" and then offer no reason for that judgement. Perhaps you have some actual evidence to share?

Nonsense, indeed.

BTW, I'd bet a lot of money that the crews must have felt these brackets (and probably the turret skirting too) were a major pain.

Hence my theory that some crews may have removed them. If the skirts keep falling off and the bracket keeps getting in the way, I'd be tempted to take them off.

OK. Thanks everyone. Didn't realize I was kicking a hornet's nest. I'll depict some with, some without, and some without even the mounting brackets.

Now, what's the best way to put zimmerit on a 28mm panzer iv????

Use Vallejo paints, and cake it on.

"99% of the places a tank operates in are not "tight"."

Have you ever been to Normandy? The lanes and village streets are tight enough to make me think twice about taking a Ford Transit down some of them, let alone a tank! Also bear in mind that in 1944 the country was practically forested with orchards (now largely gone, though there are still a lot more than where I live) and any cross-country move would require breaching numerous hedgerows and crashing through apple trees.

Now, what's the best way to put zimmerit on a 28mm panzer iv????

Liquid Green Stuff or another one of the acrylic putties.

If the skirts were meant to stop/deform slugs from anti-tank rifles, why did the PzIVj use wire mesh skirts?

The later mesh skirts were indeed designed to stop HEAT rounds. The solid metals one weren't designed to stop HEAT, though they did have that unintended consequence.