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"Horses, our friends" Topic


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danikine7421 Aug 2014 10:30 a.m. PST

I still find horses small. The height of horses is measured at the highest point of the withers, where the neck meets the back,
Light riding horses usually range in height from 14 to 16 hands (56 to 64 inches, 142 to 163 cm) and can weigh from 380 to 550 kilograms

Larger riding horses usually start at about 15.2 hands (62 inches, 157 cm) and often are as tall as 17 hands (68 inches, 173 cm), weighing from 500 to 600 kilograms

i do find horses horribly small in comparison with the bigger riders

Why dont miniature makes cast them in the right proportion??

28mm are awfull

von Winterfeldt21 Aug 2014 10:47 a.m. PST

on the contrary I find most horses much too tall compared with the contemporary military horse sizes, cynically speaking of dwarfs on elephants see those cuirassiers on heavy cavalry mounts, Klein plate of about 1815 – not so monster sized horses

[URL=http://imageshack.com/f/06krassiertrompeterkleinj]

[/URL]

OSchmidt21 Aug 2014 10:57 a.m. PST

Im with you Danikine74. Up here in Sussex County New Jersey it's a big horse county and we have the Sussex County Farm and Horse show which hosts one of the big three events for the show jumping circuit in the country. I attend regularly. These are where you have the Arabians, the Long Jumpers, and so forth. These are the horses that would "in the day" have carried around the cuirassiers and dragoons and the better class of Hussars. Of course-- campaigns are extremely hard on horseflesh and after a while cavalrymen rode whatever they could get and were glad to have it BUT…

In miniatures I prefer my cavalry regiments to look good. So far the ONLY make I have found that consistently make horses of the right size and in the right position are the old 28mm Surens and Staddens. These magnificent castings are obviously made by someone who's seen a horse run and walk. Most of the horses made out there are way too small and their feet are positioned all wrong, making them run like dogs.

One reason they do this is to save the lead. The next is sloth. Most of them haven't seen a horse since the last time they were on the horsey ride in the front of the supermarket and their mom's gave them a quarter.

Ligniere Sponsoring Member of TMP21 Aug 2014 11:59 a.m. PST

There's the drawing made in 1812 by Faber du Faur, which suggests that due to the extreme horse losses during the campaign, the French Cuirassier and Carabiner had to resort to ponies as mounts…

picture

However, it occurred to me, from reading an account from a member of the Dutch Red Lancers, that some actually had two mounts. Their battle mount was a led horse, well fed, and kept fresh for battle. Whilst for their daily movement they employed locally obtained woodland ponies, which they apparently rode till death, feeding them as required, but always second place to their actual mounts.

It would appear that this drawing might actually be representing that very practice.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP21 Aug 2014 12:30 p.m. PST

Horses suck! real menn use Donkeys, much better and smarter animals!

14Bore21 Aug 2014 12:57 p.m. PST

Watching a John Wayne movie the other day (True Grit) he comments that Glen Campbell (a Texas Ranger)is riding a sheep. But always that that John on a horse makes it look like he's riding a sheep.

von Winterfeldt21 Aug 2014 1:19 p.m. PST

Modern show horses are a poor comparison for horses bred 200 years ago – for those who are interested how cavalry looked like, one must look at contemporary prints and study the horse sizes for the different branches of cavalry.

danikine7421 Aug 2014 11:56 p.m. PST

it might be…

But i still think it is a fault of the painter/drawer. We humans were not as taller as we are today. you are saying those horses were ponnies then?

by 1800s central europe and France and england were breedin horses at their best!!

I cannot post pictures, i dont know,

but take a look at those condottiere statues of 1400s the horse was then bigger than in those pictures you show

Now light horese for the races are speccialy breed for that pourpouse light fast horses

a horse that was bred for carriying a fully equiped cuirassier could not be that small

regards

OSchmidt22 Aug 2014 5:02 a.m. PST

Danikine 174


Right you are. All those plates people are posting are meaningless. They are there only to show the HUMAN in UNIFORM. The Horse is an afterthought. You might as well put them on saw horses and it would be as good.

Modern horses are really no bigger than horses 400 years ago. The desire of breeders for specialized horses has pretty much run up against the barriers of cold science and mother nature (They can't make them much faster or bigger, the knees and ankles go all to hell. Remember too, that the horses you see in the jumping and equestrian events ARE the horses that ran in the races. They're no longer young enough to be fast enough for the races, and if it weren't for the equestrian and jumping sport they'd pretty much be sent to the glue factory after 2 years making money at the races. Another example of the corruption money brings to everything.

By the way I am addicted to show jumping because it's a real sport. There's no judging, only scoring. Quite exciting too. You can learn a huge amount about cavalry from watching the more important part of the cavalryman, the horse.

To be brief, you learn the ridiculousness of the idea of "shock" in cavalry action, how insecure a rider sits in the saddle, (not a jumping event goes by where some horse does not take the jump (refuses) and stops dead, sending the rider flying head over heels over the fence or oxer. Most important is how the horses place their feet. Watching how they move tells you a huge amount about how they can be used.

Beautiful animals, just marvelous to watch them on the course. Quite exciting.

One of the most beautiful things I've ever seen too is at the Farm and Horse Show on Driving Day. Horses are brought in hauling old time wagons and carriage rigs many of them quite a beautiful reproduction, but the horses are all decked out with ribbons, bells, elaborate highly polished harness' and you get a little bit of what Mediaeval pageantry was all about.

By the way one of the other interesting events is the Ladies side-saddle competition on the jumping events, and the costumed events.

But the jumping events… ah… beautiful to see that big huge animal sail effortless over that fence or Oxer. By the way, did you know the horse can jump that fence from a STANDING start in front of it?

Glad to find another horse lover.

By the way, I'm a terrible rider. I took lessons for four years when I was 16 to 20 and couldn't get the horse to do anything except try and kill me. Finally gave up, but that just means I am even more fascinated by those who can do it.
The instructor was baffled, said I was doing everything right, but I couldn't get a horse to jump over a log laying on the ground. He said to me "I guess your personality and manner just can't establish control over the horse."

Still love em though.

Gunfreak mentioned Donkeys. OK. By the way Mules are much better as draught animals than horses. A horse will do anything to please it's master, including letting the rider run him till his heart bursts. Mules are different. Mules will work hard but there comes a time when they say "enough is enough" and just stop. It's a shut-down safety Mules apparently have that horses don't.

In games I rarely have my cavalry charge unless it's more or less a formality of getting well depleted and demoralized infantry to just take off.

If you want to read a good story about horses in the Military, read Rudyard Kipling's "The route of the White Hussars." It's about the attempted cashiering of the Drum Horse of a Regiment by a new colonel."

Every Cavalry regiment I have MUST have a Drum Horse! and a Trumpeter!

Otto

Ligniere Sponsoring Member of TMP22 Aug 2014 6:42 a.m. PST

All those plates people are posting are meaningless. They are there only to show the HUMAN in UNIFORM. The Horse is an afterthought. You might as well put them on saw horses and it would be as good

I'm sure the artist, Faber du Faur, didn't intend the horses in his drawing of the French Carabiner and Cuirassier to be an after-thought. Quite the opposite.

He was illustrating, vividly, the result of the loss in horse flesh during the advance from the Nieman towards Moscow.

My point was that some of the French cavalry, in an attempt to save the lives of their battle mounts [the actual horses they rode into battle], resorted to using a second mount. These replacements were locally found animals that were essentially little more than ponies in stature – something the artist wanted explicitly to show.

Oliver Schmidt22 Aug 2014 8:34 a.m. PST

Here some data on the height of horses used in the miltary 200 years ago.

French:

link

Prussian:

link

von Winterfeldt22 Aug 2014 8:45 a.m. PST

"All those plates people are posting are meaningless."

A statement I ignore, a close and unbiased look at a lot of contemporary artist will show how diligent the artist did study and portray the horses, some of the artists themselves like Albrecht Adam were famous "horse" painters.

Modern horses as well as modern illustrations will provide that we gain a distorted view – so we end seeing in model miniatures very often dwarfs on elephants

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