"21st Panzer Division Normandy" Topic

Can anyone give me a list of vehicles used by this division?

Given the flood of folk here clamouring to give you answers, thats because you ask a heck of a question.

The only accurate answer is nobody knows…. There is endless speculation and debate on rivet counting sites like axis forum and feldgrau concerning what exactedly equipped this division because of the variety of French vehicles and conversions utilised, thats before we get into trucks and primemovers, what artillery pieces were used, plus whether French mortars and mg's were used and when and how many etc etc…..

21stpzr in Normandy is a big old can of worms…..

However… If you just want to get some toys on the table then dig around on the afore mentioned sites (if you can bear it),
If you fancy investing in a few books then Kortenhaus' history is very good, as is perrigault (in French though), zetterling is great for nitty-gritty ( but apparently contains errors about mortars…thats what you are dealing with when you delve into the dark world of the forums)…

If you don't want to spend any cash, and just fancy getting a wargame together with an approximate flavour of the unit then have a look at the fire and fury battlefront site, and the flames of war website,they both have obs for the division in normandy and will give you a good idea with enough info to get a game together.

JDLee:
Try this which is designed for the Fire and Fury wargame:
PDF link
Or this:
link
Or try this which is more real world but also more complicated:
link
Good Luck!
You might also private message Jemima Fawr who knows everything about the formation and did some game design for Fire and Fury.
Cheers.
Rod Robertson

As you already may or may not know, the 21st was in the process of upgrading its tank units when D-Day dropped in their lap. Some crews were back in service areas drawing new tanks, some already had them (mostly Pz IV G/H). From what I read here in older posts and elsewhere, the tanks were mostly (all?) current German issue. However, much of the support elements still made massive use of French and other captured conversions.

I usually make use of the Fire & Fury link above to glean what info I need for my games. The FOW link has lots of nice pics for inspiration.

Wot they said. There are already a lot of TMP discussions on this subject, including some relatively recent ones, so it's well worth having a search of the forum. Many of those also link back to earlier discussions. I wrote the Fire & Fury doc.

In a nutshell and as has been said above, the French tanks had gone by D-Day (Kortenhaus says to the Eastern Front – possibly to Hungary, though some others suggest that they went to independent panzer units along the Atlantic Wall). Their crews had been transferred to Mailly-le-Camp training area, near Paris, to train on new PzIVs.

The 1st Bn of Panzer-Regiment 22 was essentially a normal battalion of PzIV G/H.

The 2nd Bn of Panzer-Regiment 22 was a sorely understrength PzIV Bn, with the 5th, 6th & 7th Companies each having a single platoon of PzIV G/H and the 8th Company with 6x PzIV B/C.

The rest of the division made heavy use of converted French vehicles. The 1st Battalions of each panzergrenadier regiment used armoured conversions of French halftracks, while all four battalions used armoured heavy support halftrack conversions. Each regiment also had armoured regimental support companies. These were mainly conversions of the Unic P107, with the heavier Somua halftracks used for heavy weapons and Lorrains used as SP 15cm guns.

Two of the division's three pioneer companies were armoured in Somua halftrack conversions.

StuG-Abteilung 200 had four batteries of converted H39 tanks. There were three versions – Command/OP, 105mm howitzer and 75mm PaK 40. A mistake by the German officer compiling the divisional strength-returns has been repeated in almost all books on the subject and shows each battery with 4x 75mm and 6x105mm (there is no mention of command/op vehicles or platoon organisation).

However, the discovery by Ian Daglish of Major Becker's after-action report for his defence against Operation 'Goodwood', clearly shows 6x PaK 40 and 4x 105mm per battery. The 75mm were split into two forward-deployed platoons of 3x75mm for anti-tank defence, with the 4x105mm deployed to the rear as a single platoon for indirect fire. The single command vehicle was deployed forward and doubled as an OP for the 105mms.

Panzeraufklaerungs-Abteilung 200 was different in that it actually used German equipment and fairly standard organisation. Nevertheless, there was an unusual element, in that the division's workshops had installed pintle-mounted 20mm cannon onto six of the 3rd Company's Sdkfz 250/1s.

Mark,

Coincidentally I was reading part of Daglish's book this morning as part of some scenario research I'm doing. In it he describes Becker's mobile HQ as having an antiaircraft screen of six 2cm Flak 38s and two quad Flaks, all mounted on French half-tracks.

Now just about the only thing I haven't seen mounted on a French half-track is a quad Flak. How about you? This must be an error, but if not have you any suggestions as to what the quad Flaks could have been mounted on?

And whilst you're here (if you're here!), can you help me with this? I'm currently playing rules that allow late war infantry sections to have increased firepower because of an increase in the issue of LMGs. You can replace an infantry section with a LMG section according to a set ratio per nationality.

I seem to recall you writing sbout this somewhere, and mentioning the British getting extra Brens in either Italy, the Far East, or both. Is there evidence that the British got extra Brens in NW Europe, and if so from approximately what date and which units?

Hi Deephorse,

Yes, Becker's HQ certainly had a Flak platoon of 6x leSPW U304(f) with 2cm Flak and that's listed on the KStN, as well as in Becker's account. However, as you say, Becker's account also lists the presence of a pair of SP quad 2cm flak. I've not read of a French vehicle mounting quad 2cm weapons and I would imagine that these were Sdkfz 7/2s.

They might indeed have belonged to Becker's unit, in which case they were missed by the KStN writer. Whoever he was, he did make quite a few errors, so this is not imposible. Alternatively, they might have been attached from another unit.

Re the multiple Brens, I did read a divisional order (46 Div, I think?) ordering the disbandment of one of its three brigades and the redistriobution of Brens to the other two brigades, to enable each rifle section to have two Brens. Some Commandos (such as those of 3 Cdo Bde in Burma) are also known to have adopted a two-Bren section organisation on a local basis.

However, for NW Europe I don't recall reading any order to that effect above platoon level. I think it was Jary who mentioned reducing his platoon to two sections and then using the sapre Bren to beef up the firepower of one of the two sections. In any case, this was then a temporary measure until their next replacement draft, when the three-section structure would be reinstated, with each section having one Bren.

Thanks for that Mark. You should write a book. I'd buy a copy. Hell, I'd buy two!

Cheers! I think I'll call it 'Tedious Military Minutiae of the Western Front 1944-45 (except for three weeks in November 1944 and anything to the right of British 2nd Army)'

Jemima Fawr:
Catchy title, I will read it just before bed!
Cheers.
Rod Robertson
PS. Why the moniker paying tribute to an angry fish-wife and twelve very manly French sailors?

It's a long story and I'd PM to explain if I could. Are you on WD3 or LAoW?

Hey, she was a cobbler and pub-bouncer, I'll have you know!

Jemima Fawr:
I am a Luddite and have no idea what WD3 and LAoW are, let alone being a member of them. Rest assured I shall live on in ignorance and somehow manage to complete my life without ever knowing why you chose Jemima Fawr! If you feel that my ignorance is something which must be corrected then you can e-mail me at evilroddyrobertson@gmail.com and tell me all about it.
Cheers.
Rod Robertson