"Armor vs ISIS?" Topic

If ISIS is largely an infantry force, more like a mob in arms, you would think they would be an easy target for enemy armor (backed with infantry).

Why aren't the Iraqis using their armor against ISIS?

What does ISIS have in the way of anti-armor assets?

The Kurds have no armor?

Perhaps because ISIS also has some M-1 tanks, perhaps some Russian armor, RPGs, etc.

The Kurds supposedly don't have any heavy weapons. I don't think they even have RPGs, though that may be changing soon.

Also, not sure how well the Iraqi army is trained on armored warfare, or what they have, and they seem to have little inclination to want to aid the Kurds, or even themselves.

Given how quickly the Iraqi army folded, twice, against US forces, it is small wonder they crumbled before the much more brutal force of ISIS. Of course, many of the ISIS members/allies/leaders are supposedly Sunnis as well, so they get a bit of support from the disaffected population in Iraq, who have been fighting the Shia for centuries.

All sides really seem to be best suited to small-scale, guerrilla-war type actions, where they can be bold when lightly opposed, and to quickly retreat if things get hot.

IIRC, they have at least one armored division, possibly two, since the war. Don't remember where they are based, though. (That's the Iraqi Army, btw)

Isis
is well supplied with Infantry Anti Armour weapons ,Has several types of chinese made ATGM. Most of the armour captured may have been sent to Syria to combat the stiffer resistance they face there. Most of the captured equipment were Mraps Humvees and M117 armoured security vehicle variants.
Persmerga
Have about 40-50 T62,T55 Captured from the Iraqi Army in the 80s Of which maybe half are still operational would be my guess a similar number of APCs Russian and western.
They have a large number of Modified civilian trucks and Pick ups carrying everything from MG to MRL they also have a small number of russian D30 122 mm arty and a few M198 155s you should bear in mind that the kurds have not recieved any of the 200 million in weapons that the Federal Iraqi govt got to issue to them. At least two BNs of Iraqi Special forces retreated to their territory,and the same number of Golden Lion units . Golden Lion were joint Iraqi Kurdish BNs heavly trained by US forces before the US departed.

You have to appreciate that this is anything but a conventional conflict Bill.

ISIS forces for one thing are not one cohesive force in one or two places that you could force into battle.

Very little of anything has been deployed against them thus far as it is difficult to assess their numbers and placements at any one time hence the deployment of so many foreign specialist troop teams.

Up until last month the Kurds didn't even have weapons they knew how to use much heavier than small arms. Now that they have been armed and trained they are taking the fight to ISIS, something that the Iraqi forces have been reluctant or incapable of doing.

ISIS have advanced ATGW's, SPG guns with GPS systems and the Iraqi M1's have export armour and infantry armour cooperation seems poor. As for the Kurds, this BBC report makes the point that most of their equipment is 50 plus year old Soviet kit that was adequate when brand new.

link

I wonder if the US are now jamming the GPS systems of ISIS?

Mako. you make a good, but to some controversial point. Historically, Arab armies seem pretty good at small scale infantry actions, (what you describe is classic skirmishing) and defending from prepared positions, but quite incompetent at combined arms warfare, especially the correct use of armour.

I'm just reading about the fighting in 73 and the subsequent advance into Egypt and Syria, and what strikes me is the shocking incompetence of Arab armies whilst attacking with armour, even the Western equipped and trained Jordanians.

How were the Israelis so much better at armoured warfare? It could not just be because of the Western versus Eastern model of training and deployment, since the Arabs seem to have forgotten all there Soviet advisors taught them about forward recce and flank security. Instead, from the Sinai to the Golan they just seem to bulldoze their way forward, hoping numbers will guarantee victory, or split their thrust into penny packets. I am aware of the role of political interference, but is that all it is?

Milites,

From what I've read, Arab culture is not really conducive to modern professional military concepts.

It's more hierarchical than even the Soviet model, it's highly nepotistic and main loyalties are to the family and clan and not the nation states.

Hence officers are often given commissions because of family/clan ties. They don't like to delegate power either hence lower levels of command struggle.

A lot of Arab countries also distrust their militaries and set up alternative "loyal" forces ala Republican Guard type units whose main purpose is internal security. Meanwhile regular forces don't get any real training or up-to-date equipment.

This appears to have been the case for a long time too – I remember reading about colonial Arab troops being very unreliable and usually running away if the fight got hard (Morrocan Goumiers were an exception but were generally recruited from Berbers, not Arabs).

Iraqis have especially been poor fighters even when they've had technological, logistical and strategic advantages such as in 1980-88 War versus Iran.

You have to remember that a lot of these ISIS boys are carrying some pretty damn heavy tech as well. They may seem like savages, but these guys have some of the best AT weapons out there for infantry use – ex Yugoslav stuff, RPG-29s, advanced RPG-7 warheads from Syrian and Libyan supplies… they may not have much of it, but you don't need too much to make an impact.

I wouldn't worry too much about ISIS having armour, they require some skill to use properly and being a high scorer in World of Tanks doesn't qualify. They could pose a very local problem to the troops facing them, but in a wider conflict with Western support they would have little impact overall. A hundred technicals or Hummers would be a greater worry.

The Kurdish army has the usual mix of Soviet era export weapons, AK47, DSHK, ZU-23-2, RPG-7, SA-7 etc, supplemented by older Western kit such as G3 rifles, MP5, M-72 and some numbers of more modern US weapons delivered in recent years.

They captured significant stocks of equipment, and many hundreds of vehicles from the Iraqi army, including tanks, but they lack spare parts and ammo so only a fraction is available for service.

Turkey has lobbied Washington for years to delay arms sales and would get very nervous if the Kurds manage to get their fighting forces properly equipped with heavy weapons. Ditto for Iran, they certainly don't like the idea of ISIS becoming a local power, but a well-armed Kurdish state is just as scary to them.

The biggest problem is that the standard of training and morale in the forces facing ISIS is utter crap.

It doesn't matter how good your equipment is if the crews are no good.
-Kle.

Yes, as I said in response to the editor, it's not that ISIS are particularly skilful soldiers, it's just they are fanatics facing even worse opposition. A MEU with copious CAS and robust rules of engagement and procedures for processing suspected enemy combatants, would demonstrate their true military effectiveness.

Oh and as this is a fantasy a total reporters blackout and no political micro-management due to 'the optics not looking good'. The results might surprise some, but most know it would be more effective than a, #StopBeingSoNastyISIS campaign.

Isis have a core of former soldiers, some ex-Syrian army and others. They also have a large number of men who have no military background, but have been in and out of fights for the last two years, they may not be skilled soldiers, but they have practical experience, the rest is a mixed bag, as likely to run away as they would stand and fight and get killed on the spot.

Their opposition has been mostly militia and people who joined up for the paycheck with very low morale and poor training at best. As soon as the shooting started they crumbled and ran away, the smarter ones having deserted earlier.

The decent troops are kept as private armies by the various power players in the region.

There is no central authority in Iraq, the country is fragmented along old religious, ethnic and tribal lines.

ISIS has a lot of momentum at the moment, but once they get mired, fighting in several areas would quickly erode their offensive ability. They would still be a formidable force, and they might keep things "interesting" in that area for many years to come.

I'd be really leery of taking armor against ISIS, even TUSK/BUSK-upgraded Abrams/Bradleys. They have a LOT of heavy man-portable AT. Honestly, that situation is one where I'd want to 'borrow' a couple battalions of Namer heavy APCs, and/or that new 'Terminator' BMP-T.

But those require well-trained troops, and the Arabic culture really isn't conducive to making well-trained troops by Western definitions.

That's where the robust ROE would come into operation and armour only when infantry have over watch with copious drones. Look at most of the ISIS footage and those ATGW posts would be taken out by a well-trained army.

The Merkava IV with active defense is the answer, hey if it's a fantasy, how about taking an IDF Mech division to say hello to ISIS, Think, the hated enemy versus the fanatics, now that would be a game!

Some good comments here … And yes I believe ISIS has a lot of man packed AT weapons. From various sources. So the Iraqi would have some worries … especially based on the preformance of their armor in the past. Of course as of late, it's really hard for your armor to be effective if you abandon it and run away … The Kurds could use limited armor of some sort. Primarily in Infantry support blasting/rolling over sandstone buildings, etc. However, IMO, they need to take the fight to ISIS using a mix of guerilla and conventional tactics with CAS support, based on the situation. Either side rolling armor thru a village/town without suppressing it with FA (or CAS), etc., with all the RPGs, LAWs, etc. about could be in for a bad day. Of course the Kurds need to get AT weapons ASAP, if they don't have them already. I still have little faith in the Iraqi forces, other than the Kurds … no matter how much armor, AT weapons, etc. they have … Some of what they had ended up in ISIS's capable hands. As far as ISIS using MBTs, it would be very limited IMO … But I have seen footage of ISIS driving T-62s, SAU-122, US M1117 ASVs, etc. With US CAS they probably wouldn't last too long. But that would also depend on how much MANPADs they have as well as other ADA/AAA. Which from what I understand, they do have a good number of those type weapons. But in any case, how effective will they be using Tanks and ADA against real soldiers. Another consideration based on regional predilections, what are their vehicle maintenance procedures, etc. … Irom Monsters[AFVs] need a fare amount of maintenance, and that gets greater in a desert environment … The Muj had little trouble after they were trained with how to use Stingers … so that is something else to consider with CAS supporting armor, etc. …