"Battle of Brody-Dubno - Biggest Tank Battle Ever." Topic

Argue with me! I refer to the 1941 Battle of Brody and not the 1944 battle. More tanks involved than at Kursk and far more than at Battle of Pokhorovka. However many of the Soviet tanks never encountered German armour and fought infantry formations. Germans panzers were badly mauled and the soviet's armour forces in Ukraine were all but destroyed in this epic battle. I say Kursk was a smaller battle with fewer tanks so why do so many call Kursk the greatest tank battle in history? Let the spirited debate begin!
Cheers.
Rod Robertson

Let me introduce you to popular History:

Kursk is the largest tank battle EVA! because a thousand coffee table books and many History Channel programmes say so.
Kursk has Tigers, Panthers, T34's, it has Grants and Lend-lease kit without which poor old Uncle Joe could NEVER have won WWII, it says TITANIC STRUGGLE!

Brody says… T26, short barrelled Pzr IV, T28 (what are these?)…it says yet another Soviet disaster amongst many, it says yet another German success…it says, So what?

In short, popular history is made up of what is séeexxxxy…

And Brody ain't it.

link

Isn't the reason for picking Kursk that it was indeed a great tank battle, rather than a great battle that involved tanks?

Also Brody was just part of the blitzkreig that was Barabarossa. Whereas Kursk did kind of eat up a lot of the panzer reserves and help seal the fate that Stalingrad brought about.

So Kursk was more important strategically.

if the "bad guys" win then it will not get airtime. Napoleon had how many battles and we mostly get…Waterloo. i think I have seen one on Austerlitz. Nothing on the rest of his career.

I dont see the USSR as good guys very much either, so for me it was bad guys vs bad guys.

jekinder6:
I have ordered the book but alas it is on back-order from Indigo-Chapters!
Weasel:
Even though many of the Soviet tanks fought no German tanks, the tank to tank clashes in this battle were greater in numbers than the battles which make up the Battle of Kursk. While the battlefield at Brody-Dubro was large and sprawling it was smaller in size than the battlefield of the Kursk salient, so tank concentration was greater at Brody (although probably less than at Pokhorovka).
Christot:
Your point is well taken but, at least in historical circles, one might expect a slightly more analytically sound approach to evaluating tank battles than "sexiness". I could see popular culture deviating from the factual due to the attractiveness of an idea, but should not historians and studeents of history be a little more honest about the myths they create and reinforce, especially when such myths fly in the face of verifiable and readily available facts?
Rod Robertson

Jamesonsafari:
The Battle of Brody-Dubro wiped out 80%-90% of the Soviet armour in the Ukraine and was a huge strategic set-back to the Soviet defense of Russia and the Ukraine. It made the the Battle of Kiev possible and killed or captured more than half a million Soviet soldiers!
Badger22:
Borodino, Krasnol X 2, Moscow, Polotzk X2, Smolensk, etc.
Rod Robertson

Given the changes over the years I would think Kursk had a greater weight of tanks so by mass it would be the greatest.

As above, it is just part of the general rout of the western military districts in 1941, so somewhat overlooked. It depends how who define greatest tank battle, number of vehicles? density? decisive results?

For me the interesting thing about Kursk is that the Red Army was probably at the nadir of its qualitative disadvantage by then. It still had 76mm T-34s but bot all that many, the numbers being bulked out with rather a lot of foreign, light, and obsolete kit.

The Germans were fielding Tigers, Panthers, Elefants and Panzer IVHs. Panzer III too but later marks.

Whatever determined that battle's outcome it clearly wasn't the mere technical quality of the hardware.

Battle of Brody: Germans 730 tanks, Soviets 3430 tanks. Fought over a 50 – 70 km frontage.
Battle of Prokhorovka: Germans 300 tanks, Soviets 840 tanks (Including 35 lend-lease Churchills!). Fought over a 20 km frontage.
Battle of Kursk – several discreet battles: German tanks 2500, 3600 Soviet tanks. Fought over a 400+ km frontage. But the frontage was so big that "Kursk" is really several distinct and separate battles in my opinion.
So I think there is a strong argument for Brody as the biggest distinct tank battle in history!
Rod Robertson

Battle of Brody: Germans 730 tanks, Soviets 3430 tanks. Fought over a 50 – 70 km frontage.

How many Soviet tanks actually fought and how many broke down approaching the battlefield or ran out of fuel? I thought this was the big problem for the Soviets in 1941.

hagenthedwarf:
Many did breakdown, including almost all of my beloved and oh so useless T-35's, but many made it to the battlefield and were embroiled in a brutal battle over four days. Even if you cut the Soviet forces in half the battle is still bigger than Prokohrovka by far.
Rod Robertson

How many Soviet tanks actually fought and how many broke down approaching the battlefield or ran out of fuel? I thought this was the big problem for the Soviets in 1941.

Hmm, I seem to recall that many Panthers and Tigers at Kursk "broke down approaching the battlefield."

Mr. Robertson has a point, this is a really big tank battle, and was probably (depending on how you count) bigger than Kursk. But Brody gets folded into the entirety of Operation Barbarossa and so doesn't stand out. It's just another Soviet disaster in 1941, and not even a big one compared to the big encirclement battles.

Kursk was the entire German offensive effort in 1943 and so draws all the attention for that year. And it's big, and dramatic, and decisive, and has sexy Nazi stuff like SS, Tigers, Panthers,

"Bloody Triangle" is a good book, and a huge source of scenario fodder. Highly recommended.

Mserafin:
Please call me Rod, not Mr. Robertson. I am dying to get my hands on "Bloody Triangle" and I am tired of relying on sketchy internet sources for this issue.
Cheers.
Rod Robertson

The crucial difference on breakdown rates between Germs at Kursk and the Soviets at Brody is that any German vehicle that broke down at Kursk could be easily salvaged/repaired, whilst any Soviet vehicle that broke down at Brody was captured.

To wet the appetites of gamers interested in this battle:
YouTube link
Rod Robertson

When it comes to history and news, never let the truth get in the way of a good story …