"Armour values of WWII tanks?" Topic

Hi All, I need a little help on finding the data for various WWII tank armour values for the different facings.
I have written some 'Lads & Dads' tank rules but I am struggling to sort this bit out, without over powering some tanks.
The lists for the vehicles I am intending to use are based H&R model range.
If anyone is interested in the rules then please feel free to PM me and I will email you a copy over. Its only two pages.

Many thanks,

Ian

I like this site, follow the links to find either mm of plate from various aspects of all models or you can look up the AF values from ASL tables. Pretty comprehensive coverage of all WW2 nations and models.

wwiivehicles.com

This is the best I have found

Link wwiitanks.co.uk/index.php

You get some gun penetration info as well.

If it's for "lads and dads" rules why not keep it simple -say just heavy, medium and light armour for tanks.

Thanks for the links chaps, really useful.
Marshal Mark – I kind have made some generic ones but I kind of wanted to add a little detail so that a Pz IV is different to a M4 Sherman which is different to a Tiger I. That kind of thing.

Look for an old copy of Angriff by Z&M. They had specific values in milometers for a lot of tanks. Their Banzai rules covered the Pacific front.

Phil Barker's early 80s 2nd edition 1925-1950 micro-armor rules is worth a look. I thought he did a very nice job on the gun versus armor issue. Sorry – cannot remember the exact title.

B

If you can find a copy, the rule set Firefly had excellent armour charts.

WRG Armour and Infantry right here. PDF link FOR FREE!

I will second the wwiivehicles.com. Well researched data.

You might consider giving a slight edge to the tank with the sloped armor. T-34s did not have hugely thick armor…nto different from the PZ-IV really but it was sloped. Same for the Sherman. That could and maybe should be your differentiator. My 2 cents.

Some good recommendations already. I would endorse the approach of just lifting from a 'reasonable' set of rules rather than wading through the published technical data of vehicles (that way madness lies…).

I would echo the recommendation of the ASL armour values, linked above. Based on the usual 1 point roughly equals 1cm of armour modified for various factors including slope.

Who Asked this Joker – thank you for the link, that looks great I can use that principle really well.

As it's for kids [and their dads] to enjoy keep it simple but you DO need to avoid teaching them bad history.

Some will say "meh -'tis but a game" but you may as well get it right.

Main thing – German Panther and Tiger tanks were pretty near impossible to kill head on with the basic 75mm on most US/UK and the 76mm on the Soviets T-34s. This IMO NEEDS to be in your game or the kids will learn the wrong lessons.

Improved guns, like the Soviets 85mm and US 76mm had some small chance but the only gun available in numbers that could scare the Tigers/Panthers was the 17pdr.

Much as I dislike certain aspects of FLAMES OF WAR their armour rules seem simple and about right. Have a look at those. Don't dig too deep into the data charts because you will end up wanting to differentiate minimal differences and your rules will bog down.

You should keep the numbers small – single digits – and the dice rolling and modifiers to a minimum.

Simple rules are harder to write than complex rules!!!

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

The Steel Panthers computer game has loads of stats – a supposedly lite version is available for free at Matrix Games, I think.

I second firefly rules covered a lot of technical aspects.

I do sometimes wonder if I own a different copy of 'Firefly' to other people. It certainly has lots of lists, but iirc a Sherman at close range has around a 30% chance of a frontal kill against a Tiger 1 (mission kill, not necessarily catastrophic destruction), which always struck me as bonkers.

At least in WRG it is only a 17% chance of a mission kill.

Then there's Tractics, if you can find a copy.

@ Martin

Is that 30% after it's established that you have hit?

If so it sounds high but not outright bonkers to me. Hitting the tracks would do it, or the turret ring a la Bovington Tiger, or setting it on fire with phosphorus. A cacophony of hits from all around might persuade the Tiger's occupants to back off also.

What chance does the Tiger have against the Sherman??

Should be more like a 3% chance of a kill kill.

Mission kill – maybe 10% if close enough to target tracks or smart enough to fire WP (if available) etc.

The OP asked about armour values that could be incorporated into a TWO PAGE set of rules.

I am not a huge fan of the WRG system of armour classification, but it could work well for Big Ian's purposes.

Forget Firefly – I think I DO own the same copy as Martin… :o)

Everything you need to know, at Guns vs. Armour:
link

Much as I dislike certain aspects of FLAMES OF WAR their armour rules seem simple and about right. Have a look at those.

From what I remember and have looked up, the FoW armor ratings are essentially armor rounded to nearest cm, plus a d6 roll to account for the vagaries of impact angle. Armor penetration is also cm of armor, but I don't remember at what range.

Firefly is indeed faulted.
There were better club rules available and messing with the stats introduced that sherman vs tiger glitch.
Errrm
Allegedly.

I still think wrg is a good rule set for larger games.
The original v1 was pretty simple without all the order modes stuff.

The game "Tank Charts" was pretty comprehensive.

The site " Achtung Panzer ".
Great for info and stats.

Get a source that has both thickness and slope.

(Rough rule of thumb: 30' slope increase armor by X1.5; 60' by X2). Encelpedia of German Armor Jentz and Doyle has such data (and production numbers).

RE "critical" hits and FOW while 30% may be to high FOW does not allow any chance of a 75L38 damaging a Tiger I.

Side not many games use a 45' angle to establish a "side" shot, forgetting that such high angle shots would probably actually increase armor protect for side hits.

TomT

We have individual tank armour ratings in Fire! Ogon! Freur! 1984.
If you want the ratings send me an email and I will forward the rule file.
The ratings are conversion of the exact millimeter ratings.

scottnelson@bellsouth.net

Dunno if this still a live topic but the ultimate dad and lad set would be Charles Grant's set Battle. Replace inches with centimetres and it works well for 6mm. The rules are simple and the book explains the logic behind the design. It differentiates between tanks reasonably well and it is reasonably easy to extrapolate values for those tanks not included in the basic rules.

Might be hard to find a printed set but they are probably on line somewhere.

A second vote here for "Tank Charts". (probably the most un-inspiring name for a wargame set ever, but still a good game!)

Martin

Charles Grant's Battle is indeed available on line – follow the link here link