"Best Rules for Modern Subs?" Topic

Which ruleset would be your preference for gaming modern naval actions involving submarines?

Harpoon, though virtually unplayable, is probably the best at simulating modern subs.

Quiznos

Harpoon on the computer for sub v sub.

Realistic submarine warfare pretty much requires double-blind play.

I tried to make a variation of Full Thrust work, but the problem is the terrain rules and sufficient dummy contacts (you need at least 3 dummies per sub, more is more realistic!).

Not to mention the appallingly short detection/engagement ranges you'd see for 688s or newer subs.

However, you can usually use simpler rules if you game a submarine attacking Surface ships. (If you don't have es playing, the Surface player can step out of the room while the subdriver maneuvers)

Its a subject I've tried a few times. I have a oiad of 1/700 full hull models that I'd like to use for an NWS game sometime. Not easy – this plan has been on the go for 20 years now – potentially rather boring if you do it realistically, and also tricky to do without treading on the toes of the OSA :)

Dave Schueler and I swapped some ideas a decade or so ago and I think he developed one of my early drafts. And I do recall another home grown modern set being mentioned here a year or so ago. I am soaking up the sun in Portugal at the moment so can't access my files but someone else here might remember them.

My sci fi Stingray rules for next year's NWS show are proving much easier to develop :)

I understand Shipwreck has some interesting submarine rules.

Modern sub conflicts are only really interesting in 'knife-fight' circumstances, where both sides are aware of the other at close range. Stalking opponents for hours or even days on end and then torpedoing them doesn't sound like a great game.

I posted a link to these on another thread about modern naval rules, but Surface Battle Group has sub rules:
link

I would go with a sub based computer game, there are a couple of good ones out there.

I would give SBG a try, at that price it is easy enough to decide if you like it.

One set of rules (Shipwreck?) had some really goofy sub rules where they kinda just popped up on the table or were not on the table at all, no fun in that…

Shipwreck covers naval warfare more from an above water viewpoint, so the way it addresses subs is actually not that off the wall :)

Modern sub conflicts are only really interesting in 'knife-fight' circumstances, where both sides are aware of the other at close range. Stalking opponents for hours or even days on end and then torpedoing them doesn't sound like a great game.

Except that the first person to detect the opponent will usually shoot close to immediately in a war situation, and that can be really disturbingly close. Within single-digit miles close, for newish subs!

With my modified Full Thrust, I added the option of supercavitating torpedoes using the 'Pulse Torp' mechanic. calling them a direct-fire weapon was close enough to accurate as the 200-knot VA111 Shkval will travel 15km in a little over 2 minutes (and turns were 3 minutes long).

If Shipwreck does it with the totally random way I remember reading then there is no "simulation" of any kind going on. Might as well just roll a die and be done with it. Or not have subs at all.

These are quite nice…

snapshotmodernsub.webs.com

Harpoon.

Probsub seemed like it had possibilities, but doesn't include diesel-electrics, or AIPs.

I like the pictures on the Snapshot page….

Me too jg, but the big minis are optional. I do just fine and get a better feel with much smaller than their large scale beauties.

Harpoon on the computer for sub v sub.

In theory maybe, but in actuality often not. The problem with computer wargames is that they often contain subtle bugs, which you usually can't fix as you lack access to the source code. The designers usually concentrate on eye candy, expecting that the typical player will never notice.

I played the Amiga port of Harpoon a lot during the 1990s, and the game contained a persistent bug which appeared to ignore the speed of a sub as a factor in its detectability. One could prove this by performing experiments using 2 opposing connected computers. I corresponded at length with the publisher, but this was never fixed. There were quite a few other annoying bugs as well, but this was the most significant.

At least one of the 1990-era nuclear sub games had the same problem.

Mark

While ship speed does make a difference in detectability, just how much difference it makes is probably even more classified than the design of the reactor or missiles.

While I never stood watch in Sonar, even I don't know how much of a difference speed makes.

Also forgot, Probsub doesn't have info for surface combatants either, which seems to me to be a glaring omission.