"Questions about French horse artillery limbers and horses" Topic

I have done the usual Googling but not come up with any answers, so wondering if the massive can help at all.

1/ Approximately what was the towed weight of a French 6-pounder, i.e. the gun, the limber, any limber riders, plus everything else (ammunition, the tools clipped to the gun, the ready-use ammunition chest)?

2/ Were any colour conventions set forth in respect of the horses? They may not have been observed in practice, any more than the "dark colours = senior squadron" thing was observed in the cavalry regiments, but were there any to begin with – darkest horse at the front? Dark horses on the left?

You will find answers in Smoothbore Ordnance Journal 1 that is on the Napoleon Series Website in the translation of Smola by Digby Smith.

Other information would be in Smoothbore Ordnance Journal 5.

The printed versions are available from Ken Trotman Publishing.

I have seen no preferences for horse colours. Remember the dark horses were preferred as they were less likely to suffer from sunstroke. White and grey horses are susceptable.
Stephen

re. horses – sunstroke… wow, while some might consider that a trivial matter that is very interesting indeed. I had no idea.

Thanks for that Stephen.

Cheers!
Beeker

An-XI canon de 6-livre

barrel : 390 kg
carriage only (no implements or ammuntion) : 515 kg
removable coffret : 20 kg
12 rounds of ammunition and small items in the coffret : 20 kg
implements (tools, etc. attached to the carraige) : 20 kg
limber : 310 kg
=================
sub-total : 1275 kg

Sources : Nilus (1904), de Morla (1827), Musée de l'Armée (See link )

What is not included is the rigging and harnesses for the horses. Nilus give a total "system" weight of 1325 kg , implying that these weighed 50 kg – which i find reasonable for a four-horse rig for foot artillery. For comparison, he gives a total system weight for a Russian "obr. 1805" 6-lber as 1160 kg – but with 20 rounds in the ready ammunition chest on the limber.

As for riders, I don't think the French intended that the crew ride the piece, but either walk (artillerie à pied) or ride their own horses (artillerie à cheval). If you want to try to add some riders, then maybe add 85 kg per man (with pack, musket, etc.) on average.

- Sasha

Before this topic I did not care about french6 pounders but this has changed thanks about that up to now I liked to get my guns of any caliber on the table!!!!!! greetings serge joe

Thanks Stephen. Your suggestion led to me Smola's data, which suggested that the weight of a 6-pounder, limber and all the various accoutrements was 1.33 tonnes, excluding the riders. Which is 222kg per horse in a 6-horse team.

This ties very well to Alexandre's figures.

By riders, incidentally, I meant the guys riding on the left-hand limber horses. Another source at the site Stephen suggested says that a ridden horse was expected to be able to carry a 160lb (73kg) rider for 8 hours a day at 8,000 paces an hour.

Very useful – thanks all.

Cher Curassier du 4eme,

(Great regiment, by the way – see link )

Yes, I should have listed Smola in my sources. Within rounding or the variation between pieces, it is the same number.

Comments (my opinions/conclusions) ….

What is really interesting to me is that the general rule-of-thumb is that a draft horse can pull half it weight over the long term (repeated daily or near daily service). Modern horses weigh on average 500 kg. Horses of the era, on campaign, something less – but the artillery horses were selected for size and strength. So let say 500 kg for the era's artillery horses.

Comparing to the weight per horse of the French 6-lvr, we see the horse artillery 6-horse team as barely sufficient and the foot artillery 4-horse team as maybe a problem waiting to happen on a long campaign. And indeed, in the long campaigns (Spain, Russia) the French artillery did lose lots and lots of horses.

The Russians, and the Saxons in their 1810 designs, were really sensitive to the weight/horse issue. You see this not only in commentaries, but in the actual designs (thinner wall for the barrels, slightly shorter in calibres, lighter wood, less metal in the carriage, etc.) Weight/horse seems less of a concern for the various artillery commissions and commentators among the French.

The result was that a Russian short 12-lber gun had a system weight less than a French 8-lber and was almost as light as a French 6-lber.
-- French 8-lber (total barrel length 18 calibres) : system weight 1500 kg
-- Russian short 12-lber (total barrel length 13 calibres) : system weight 1370 kg
-- French 6-lber (total barrel length 18 calibres) : system weight 1325 kg

And, the Russian 1/4 pud unicorn and 6-lber were only somewhat heavier than a French 4-lber
-- Russian 1/4 pud unicorn (12-lber calibre, total barrel length 11 calibres) : system weight 1165 kg
-- Russian 6-lber (total barrel length 17 calibres) : system weight 1160 kg
(The Saxon 6-lber was about the same)
-- French 4-lber (total barrel length 18 calibres) : system weight 1000 kg

Now, accuracy of aim for long-distance shots was indeed reduced when the total barrel length was less than 15 calibres. But, such "sharpshooting" with artillery at long range was not very common – and, of course, irrelevant when firing shell or cannister.

Interesting, no ?

- Sasha

A much more interesting thread than I thought it would be! It never ceases to amaze me that a subject like artillery, which you would think would be fairly cut and dried because it deals with solid physical things, rather than people, turns out to be so complicated, And the experts keep disagreeing.

Sasha makes an interesting point about riders. We often see pictures and produce our figures with riders on the left hand horse. But the pace would often be quite slow – so often the driver would be walking, surely – for foot artillery anyway.

That's handy since many of my limber models don't feature a rider!

Remember the dark horses were preferred as they were less likely to suffer from sunstroke. White and grey horses are susceptable.

White/grey horses as certainly susceptible to sunburn.

The different system weights are really surprising, actually. Had I to guess, I would have said they were all about the same – looking at the design of a French, Russian or Prussian limber, there's nothing to choose between them.

I'd have expected the weight of a single-block carriage like the British type to be less than the split-trail contraptions of the others, with all the additional ironwork reinforcing these would have needed, but the difference here seems marginal, and the overall weight of the British system is no better – perhaps because of the more substantial limber.

I suspect battlefield mobility would have been little different, but the ability to withstand campaigning might have been quite a lot different.

Sasha, thanks for the 4th Cuirassiers link – many years ago when painting Hinchliffe French my brother and I chose this as our cuirassier regiment, mainly because of the funky orange facings but also the impressive battle honours…

The normal term is drivers or conductors.
Stephen

Hi I do not haver the exact reference to hand but French Horses where Colour co-ordinated:

Imperial Guard = Black
Others were Brown, Bay , Grey, & white

But I can not remember the distinction I previously found it on line

The French Imperial Guard rode, according to the regiment concerned, black for the Horse Artillery, Grenadiers a Cheval, and Gendarmerie d'Elite, and the remainder bays or chestnuts.

Trumpeters, bandsmen, and kettledrummers rode whites or grays.

Officers sometimes rode grays.

B