"Armed Forces of an Independent Scotland - BBC last night" Topic

There was a fascinating programme on the BBC last night about the likely consequences for the remainder of the UK of a Yes vote for Scottish Independence. A large part of the programme was taken up with Defence including how the UK's armed forces might be divided. The Scottish Nationalists for example are asking for 12 Typhoon fighters, 2 Frigates and 6 Hercules aircraft amongst other things. There was also a lengthy discussion about what would happen to the UK's Trident submarines currently based at Faslane. Well worth a look if you didn't see it and have access to I-player.
Oh and there was the obligatory clip of Mel Gibson at the Battle of Stirling (Bridge) in Braveheart – Hold ! Lol

It will be an interesting negotiation.

I am speaking out of a foreign observer view point, regarding splitting the UK, and have a quick question that is tied to this topic peripherally.

How strong is Scotland's economy? I know a lot of tech sector jobs have moved there, but I am not overly familiar with Scotland's economic development otherwise. Are they strong enough, economically speaking, to stand on their own? I mean no offense to anyone with this, it is really more of a sincere question. I have read a few articles talking about the economic viability of Scotland as an independent nation, and it seems sort of grim, at least those assessments.

It seems like paying for a military will be a rough line to tow.

Also, I wonder how it will affect Scotish soldiers who have made a career out of the British military, to say nothing of Scottish units in the British army. Going to reset their career in a new army?

Seems like a lot of stuff to hassle with for minimal gain to me, but then nationalism can be a strong pull.

can you fly a Tornado in a Kilt?

"can you fly a Tornado in a Kilt?"

yes , however flying inverted might be embarrassing !

There is a wealth of information on the economy and on defence in the Scotland's Future white paper, available as a PDF here.

PDF link

"How strong is Scotland's economy?"

In the long run, small countries are just fishfood for the globalised world economy, so from an economonic pov independance might most charitably be described as 'a brave move'.

"can you fly a Tornado in a Kilt?"

Yep, don't need a parachute then. Now there's a saving…..

You'll find few Scottish soldiers will want to join whatever defence force Scotland sets up. Thats certainly the discussion I'm privy to.

"can you fly a Tornado in a Kilt?"

Yep, don't need a parachute then. Now there's a saving…..

But the 'Rip cord' release handle is a bit of a painful pull . ;+D

Does this mean the end of the Scots guards, will they march north after independence? The Scots Grays, or whatever they are now? All the other Scottish regiments are they gone from the British army?

Will they rebuild and modernise the Roman walls and plant Haggas minefields?

I still think they would get a yes majority if they allowed all of the UK to vote.

Will the UK change it's name? Will they alter the jack again? Given that the Jack represents the national Roman Catholic saints of three mythologized men, some of whom never even set foot in the region (St George for example) and given that the Queen is defender of a different faith, have you thought about dumping the Jack anyway? It seems to represent your history but not who you are. Do the Scots even need a military at all? Regarding the Scots guards – perhaps they will take on a parallel identity to Rome's Swiss Guards?

The programme I mentioned also spent quite a while talking about the Union Jack to some flag expert 'Unlucky General'. He made a similar point to yours that its made up of Christian crosses from different saints and there has to be a case considering how multicultural the UK is these days to reconsider it. It also speaks volumes that the Welsh aren't represented in the Union Jack. His view was you would have to look at it again from scratch.

There was a lot of talk about the negotiations and how difficult they would be – for example it would have to be down to ownership rights of individual paintings for example. Something I'd never thought about.

As someone else pointed out wealth of info elsewhere but very interesting programme especially for those of us south of the Border who have not had that much exposure to the issues.

Finally, as to name change Former United Kingdom has been suggested (rather tongue in cheek when you consider the initials).

I thought the vote was looking unlikely as it gets closer and the lead voice on independence certainly had a bad outing in the last debate.

You might want to have a look at the information generally available online. (Not in the MSM as of 37 daily newspapers in Scotland, not one is supporting a Yes to Independence vote.) The economy is strong and even the Independence opponents have acknowledged that Scotland has what it takes to be economically successful. Even without oil assets, Scotland ranks only just behind London in tax returns in the UK. And that is even with a lot of exports masked because while produced in Scotland, they are listed by where they are exported form as in the port. So a lot of whisky for example, flows through SE England ports.

The military is an interesting one. A lot of Scots squaddies are 'loyalist' queen and country, and have had the Scottish National Party portrayed (in handouts from the Ministry of Defence) of 'breaking up Britain, threatening the UK military heritage and so on.

Even so, the way that the British Army has been treating its own people over the last few years is making a few of them sit up and take notice. I suspect more than a few will take the opportunity to move to any future Scottish Defence Force. At the moment, all Scottish infantry regiments have effectively ceased to exist as they have been collapsed into one regiment. The Scots Greys ceased to exist independently when they were merged a few years back, and Scottish airbases have been closed over the last few years.

This counts as contemporary politics surely?

Probably a bad idea to have the thread.

Odds for a No currently 1:10 on – reflecting polls and it is basically a moot issue. I for one will be glad when the dreary, overlong process is over.

Hi Midpoint,
As you will see I started the thread.
It was to draw attention to a completely non-political programme that had a substantial element devoted to the defence implications of a Yes vote. I found the programme fascinating and wanted to draw attention to others who might also be interested. At no point have I in my comments expressed my opinion on the wisdom of a move (neither did the programme).
I therefore completely disargree that the thread counts as contemporary politics or that the thread itself was a bad idea. However, I accept that some people have expressed opinions.
Looking at your profile I can see you are Scottish resident and can understand why you find the process dreary. However, I live in the North of England (with a Scottish wife)and I am very interested in the implications. There has been almost no coverage south of the border.
At the end of the day its a TV programme no one is obliged to watch it.
As to it being a 'moot' point – count it as a 'what if?'.
I am genuinely not trying to start an argument with you. As I say my wife is Scottish, we visit her family and friends in Scotland all the time. I adore Scotland. I keep my views on the wisdom of Independence to myself.
The programme was genuinely fascinating, if only from an academic point of view, about what is likely to happen if you try and split the UK up. As it included Defence I thought it would be of interest here.
Kind Regards
Aubrey

No problem Aubrey, I accept my comments could have seemed critical of you. That wasn't my intention – only to say, 'well, this could get out of hand quickly' if we get one or two fanatics jumping in to wave fists and shout.

Seen too much of that locally :(

Midpoint – Thanks for the clarification.
Yes you are right and believe me that is the last thing I want as well. If it does get out of hand I certainly won't complain if the thread is pulled.
As I said I love Scotland I just want the best for it
(whatever that might be).

Will the UK change it's name? Will they alter the jack again?

The national flag of the UK is more correctly known as the Union flag of 1801.

I think most of the points in this thread are not necessarily political, more hypothetical looks are the actual process of Scotland breaking away. More questions are asked here I think than points of view given, and have not really seen much debate.

I think most people are curious, as it is a pretty huge idea, especially to those living over there. But yeah, I see how it could get bad quick if the wrong people stuck their head in.