"Any interest in gaming ISIS?" Topic

It's hard to get into Blue Fez territory or touch a nerve with some people, so to speak, when talking about aliens, Space Marines, huge bugs, Spaceships, etc., etc.

A staple of science fiction, and it can make it easier to look at situations a little more objectively/dispassionately when talking about the "Gorbons" and "Snagthors" and not, I dunno, Irish Catholics and Russian Jews.

I read that France will be sending military supplies to the Kurds. I wonder what types of equipment? Small arms (FAMAS, etc.), Milans and APILAS? Maybe heavier weapons like mortars and MRLS? Should be interesting…

Tgunner, how much of that 'motivation' would survive when confronted by professional soldiers backed with serious hardware? Some of the core units would fight to the last civilian, but others might just melt away, especially if their fanatical leadership had just had a kinetic encounter and they were new recruits.

I guess I see it differently. Fallujah was such a clash where fighters like ISIS went toe-to-toe with professionals. We tore them up, but they were very stubborn and died very hard. For every instance of US troops handing them their tails there was a "Hell House" where we didn't do so hot so we fell back and used tanks, engineers,and arty/cs to take them out. Bit that wouldn't be true for every ISIS "unit". There are a lot of Iraqis who are in for revenge against the central gov or who are part time fighters looking for loot… Guys who might be a bit "windy" if the US comes back. So maybe ISIS units should be split into categories to show this possible difference?

If I was to use Flames of War I would call the hard-core regular ISIS fighters Fearless (Trained?) with local Iraqi militia ranging from Confident to Reluctant. I would toss in a "Hun" sort of rule that would reduce the Motivation ratings of Arab style forces because of their fearsome reputation. That.rule probably wouldn't affect Western troops unless there is some sort of evidence to the contrary.

Tg, agree, your use of Fallujah illustrates my point, there will be a hard core who fight hard, have combat experience and will need heavy weapons to dig them out, or in Fallujah's case, bury them in. I like the idea of a Hun rule, but only until ISIS are demonstrably beaten by the Iraqi Army, in which case there might be a temporary morale bonus the other way.

Motivation and morale could be simulated by borrowing a mechanic from SPI games (I first experienced it with their Kharkov game). The hard core have known morale/combat ratings, the others, random ratings determined the first time they go into combat or need a morale check. This might be a way of represent the vast number of motivating factors affecting a group like ISIS, who have temporarily co-opted existing resistance groups or press-ganged recruits. These random ratings could be different, depending on which faction is fighting which.

Alternatively, you might want a different rating for command elements and soldiers, ISIS have had time making sure the true believers are in leadership roles, but what about the rank and file? A key coalition unit might be the snipers or intel to locate and destroy HQ units.

Given this has been and seems to be the opposition for the foreseeable future, it would be nice to have a jihadist supplement for modern rules. Showing how tribal identities, traditional skirmish warfare and extreme religious beliefs have combined, adapted and evolved.

Bill I don't understand how "Some Chicken" was DHed for Harassment?

Bill I don't understand how "Some Chicken" was DHed for Harassment?

He's continuing to complain about those who wargame contemporary events, after a warning was given in the discussion.

darthfozzywig 13 Aug 2014 9:17 a.m. PST

It's hard to get into Blue Fez territory or touch a nerve with some people, so to speak, when talking about aliens, Space Marines, huge bugs, Spaceships, etc., etc.

A staple of science fiction, and it can make it easier to look at situations a little more objectively/dispassionately when talking about the "Gorbons" and "Snagthors" and not, I dunno, Irish Catholics and Russian

What about Italian Catholics !? Yes, it is easier and more fun killing off Orks, Chaos, bugs, lizardmen, etc., etc. when gaming IMO …

In reality, ISIS's methods demonstrate a crude use of fear, little changed from ancient times. Go back and read accounts of the Assyrians and their contemporaries and you will see a similar calculated brutality.

Nope

Honestly, I don't see how this would be all that different from gaming Iraq or Afghanistan.

I could probably con a friend of mine into running the ISIS troops, he'll play any faction that lets him shoot Brits (he's been my playing dummy for the Northwest Frontier running the Pathans).

And we'd both probably cheer when the technicals get blown up.

But I can totally see how some folks couldn't play the game. I know I'd have a really hard time playing as the ISIS goons.

And we'd both probably cheer when the technicals get blown up.

Yes …

To those complaining get over yourselves. I serve and I love this idea! The thought of running a campaign so people can smack around a terrorist force like this is part of my current game-plan. For me it's 15mm with either AK-47/ Modernised FOW or FoF. Scenarios would be fighting back against them in Syria, civilian evacuation, hostage extraction and taking back facilities before they do something bad (e.g recapture dams before they blow the locks etc.)

Only in real life.

More fun that way.

I had a hard time gaming Vietnam for many of the reasons given. In addition to Sci Fi, Zombie gaming does many of the things to make an opponent easier to marginalize in a modern situation.

I have been reading Force on Force and it seems like it would be a good skirmish option. AK47 might be a good operational game.

More interesting gaming aspect for me would be a few years in the future. An ISIS type Islamic state plus an Iraq-based Kurdish state could make an interesting campaign – ISIS on Jihad, Kurds wanting to annex Kurdish lands in Turkey/Iran, traditional states trying very hard not to fall apart.

My grandfather was killed in Spain 1936 SCW. Why are guys gaming this? It isn't a joke to me! It is more about history, research, art, drama, socialization, nostalgia and so on. I get it. We don't gloat over people being killed but we enjoy all the facets of the hobby that come out through the games we play.

Please name any period, or any country involved in warfare, where atrocities were not thought to have been committed. I tend to find wargaming is an excellent way have a greater understanding of history, rather greater, one might add, than those who seek to denigrate the hobby.

Yes, game ISIS, but understand that they are just another symptom of the region, not some cartoonish group whose actions are divorced from their religious and historical heritage.

I play miniature wargames for many reasons. Mostly because it's fun to play the games, fun to collect and build and paint the models. Organizing the vehicles and troops is fun, and so is doing the research. I read a lot about the periods that I wargame.

As a secondary benefit, I learn a lot. I learn history, current affairs, geography, politics and many other things from doing my wargames research. I learn the how and why of the conduct of war, both political, military, economic and tactical.

I learn about the development and use of technology, and resources. How they shape the ability of a nation to conduct war.

So I play prehistoric, and ancients, and ACW, and WWI, pulp, WWII and the Cold War gone hot and many others. In just about every war bad things happen and some are worse than others.

I will game contemporary events because I can learn from them. Just as the military will simulate different options to defeat their enemies and obtain their objectives.

Giving a time constraint to one side is a way to pressure the players into doing things they might not otherwise do. Two prisoners are eliminated per turn until you capture the compound. It does not require macabre figures, no more than artillery fire requires body parts in a wargame.

Miniature wargames are by nature sanitized and removed from the actual horrors, terrors and evils of real warfare. I will play the cowboys or the Indians; or the cops or the robbers. Wargames are not about the morality, they are about the history and the game. They are about the figures and the terrain, not about who is right or who was wrong.

The research I do for the game will reveal who was a good guy or a bad guy, if either side can claim such title.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

To those complaining get over yourselves. I serve and I love this idea! The thought of running a campaign so people can smack around a terrorist force like this is part of my current game-plan.

While I really enjoy Force on Force games for that very reason, it's tough to find someone willing to play the Bad Guys (particularly *these* bad guys). Unless you switch sides and play the scenario again?

I know someone asked about tied-up hostages earlier, and Rebel Minis makes some:

The Brush Wars scenario book for Force on Force has several 'rescue the captives' scenarios that you could modify.

Given some people are quite happy to play soldiers of armies who had committed equally appalling atrocities, are we saying ISIS is unplayable because it is too current, or that older generations are less morally culpable?

I'd have a difficulty playing them because, apart from suicide bombers and religious fanaticism, they are a rag-tag bunch of mainly half-competent militia.

…they are a rag-tag bunch of mainly half-competent militia.

That kicked the butt of several enemies, until US airpower stepped in.

Kurds without heavy weapons, low on ammunition and and over-stretched, Iraqis who were demoralised, divided on sectarian lines or led by incompetent political appointees. ISIS has a core of international jihadists, who would be competent, but the rest are just half-competent fanatics. It's this fanaticism, backed with international financial and military support, that has driven their success, not military skill, bar the basics..

So yes, they did 'kick the butt of several enemies', that does not reflect on their military effectiveness, just their opponents incompetence or, in the case of the Kurds, the restrictions placed upon them.

Sounds like some interesting tactical challenges, could make for some very interesting scenarios.

I think ISIS would make a very good programmable opponent that a number of gamers, representing the different forces, could fight against. Each player might have different objectives though and might not always cooperate.

ISIS specialise in suicide bombings, are fanatical (although no one has used flame throwers or napalm on them) and have a pretty programmed attack (VBIED followed by massed infantry assault) or ambushing and then skirmishing and surrounding an opponent. This would be quite easy to simulate with different ISIS factions triggering a particular strategy dependent on their fanaticism.

Do you mean they use suicide bombings as a military tactic?

Aren't Flamethrowers and Napalm banned weapons nowadays ?

Yes, I posted footage of Iraqi SF's battling ISIS and at the start of a video a black clad figure runs out with an arm raised. The lead HUMVEE reverses and the following brings fire on the man, there is an explosion as the suicide bomber detonates his vest.

In Syria recently an attack on SA post was preceded by a truck based VBIED and then an assault of 600 fighters. One of the UK Jihadists was the driver of the truck bomb that preceded the attack on the prison in Aleppo.

During the fighting in Iraq and Chechnya, VBIEDs often preceded attacks on bases and in Fallujah US troops were warned against jihadists entombing themselves if assaulted.

The UN CCW, in 1980, said Napalm can be used against military forces but is forbidden against civilian populations.

As Milites says IS routinely use suicide VBIEDs in assaults, as well as suicide bombers during actions. They used several SVBIEDs in the attack on Taqba airbase a few nights ago. There were also reports of suicide bombers in the fighting around Mosul Dam.
When it comes to gaming IS, the integration of the suicide bomber into their tactics would be a signature difference from something like Afghanistan, say.

Aren't Flamethrowers and Napalm banned weapons nowadays?

flamethrowers are an engineering tool, used to clear jungle and wooden obstructions (though explosives are usually preferable). They also make great flank blockers, since nobody is going to charge through a pile of burning whatever.

Nowadays, it seems we use thermobarics to clear bunkers and cave complexes, which aren't much friendlier than a flamethrower. But they give better standoff distance and don't have the reputation for blowing up if you put a hole in the fuel tank!

No interest from me…but for those who are interested, don't forget to snip the heads off your ISIS opponent casualty figures. Y'know, for accuracy.